In August, the 36th and final issue of the “Abe Sapien” ongoing series comes out. Written by Mike Mignola and Scott Allie, “Abe Sapien” has a pair of artists on art duties alternating with each arc: twin brothers Max and Sebastián Fiumara. In this interview Max and Sebastián discuss their time on the book and some of their favorite moments.
You’ve both had an incredible run on the series. It sort of been this three-year relay race as the series alternates between you both from arc to arc. As I understand it, you share the same studio space. What’s it been like to work so closely together on a long term project like this?
Max Fiumara: It’s been a rewarding, unique experience since this is the first book on which we’ve worked together as a team. We’ve shared almost everything in the conception of this series. At the beginning, Seba started with Abe as I was finishing “B.P.R.D.: 1948”, but even then we talked a lot about the approach to the character; and I think the Abe design particularly was the most interesting factor we’ve seen evolve in the entire run.
When we fist saw Abe’s new design by Mike, we started to wonder what to do with it, since it looked so different from the classic version; it was difficult to find a good way to depict it at first. But the design evolved, as I’ve experienced it, drawing him on the page and seeing how Seba was drawing him on the page as well, seeing how he looked from different angles and all that. Then Abe started to grow unique facial lines. Then I’d draw him in a cover or something and Seba would pick something from that design that he would use to make him look better, and then I’d pick something from his lines that I liked more and draw from there. From facial expressions to the posture he has on the book, if you take a look at what we did with him, apart from what Dave did with colors, he almost always looks a little bit different, but somehow consistent, and I think that’s because we’ve been so close and watching the process of drawing him from one desk to the other.
Sebastián Fiumara: Yes, also once we thought we had found a way of drawing Abe, we asked our friend Fernando Blanco to make a statue of him for us, to use it as reference for some basic consistency on his anatomy.
And regarding the working process, we did the same with the supporting cast too. We worked together on the design of Strobl first but then, for each arc, Max would take care of the characters in his issues and I would do the same with the ones in my issues, but discussing ideas back and forth all the time.
Another good thing about working together in the same studio is that you can solve a problem right away. As for example the way we did the trade paperback covers, Max would pencil them and I had the cover right away on my desk to ink. And if I don’t get something from his drawing I have Max right there to consult, too. And he can also have some thoughts on the final look.
The way your designs feed off each other is fascinating. I remember in the sketchbook of your first trade collection “Abe Sapien: Dark and Terrible and The New Race of Man” the flashback panel of Vaughn’s death in the fourth issue was actually the first time that scene had been drawn, since Sebastián was still drawing issue three at the time. I imagine things like that must have happened rather frequently, especially as you got to the five-part arc, “A Darkness so Great”.
Max: Yeah, it happened many times, and it all worked out because Scott [Allie] took notice and kept track of it all so that we wouldn’t mess up. Especially in “A Darkness so Great”, that detailed track on who draws what first was monumental!
Continued belowSebastián:And that was another benefit of sharing the workplace too, Scott would call the studio and talked to both of us in the same call.
In “A Darkness so Great” Scott and I came up with that big zombie fight for chapter four. Max ended that scene on the last chapter. But he was ahead of me, so he was already done with that fight when I started drawing it. I took the settings and the positions of the characters or how badly injured they were based on Max’s pages.
That’s fascinating, the way you reverse-engineered a fight sequence like that. You worked amazingly well within those constraints too; that fight sequence is a stand-out moment in the series.
The thing is, this isn’t just a back and forth process between you both as the artists—I hear that you both have an impact on the story too. In fact, a sequence in “The Shadow Over Suwanee”, the vision of Caul standing in front of the church, came from Max. It was something he pitched to Scott, and it evolved from there. But that’s something he couldn’t have done if he hadn’t known what was coming next.
You were told where this story was going so that you could participate actively in the shape of the story and it really shows, especially as we approach the end of the series. There are so many visual callbacks to earlier issues, and it is immensely satisfying as a reader. Could you tell me about your involvement in the story and how you have both helped shape it?
Max: Yes, since the beginning we were told what the whole arc would be about and how it would end. Actually, it was a few months after we started the book that we heard the whole thing. Scott came to Argentina, where we live, to a convention in Rosario, where he was one of the guests. During that weekend, we spent a lot of time with Scott and he told us all about Abe’s journey right there, walking along the streets of Rosario. It was a magical time, and fascinating for us to be able to discuss and contribute things here and there. We got a great perspective of how Abe would evolve during this book and we could see then how much damage we could do without breaking or interfering with the story!
The sequence in “The Shadow over Suwanee” was based on an idea I came up with about Abe being trapped inside a monster’s gut and stabbing the monster with a church. Scott and I talked about it and he added Caul to the story. We did this kind of things all the time; in issue #14 Abe’s dream sequence was my idea, and Grace’s was Scott’s, and then we both added things to both sequences.
Also the Abe symbol was something I thought would be cool for the story and mentioned that to John Arcudi when we where doing “A New Race of Man”. He brought that to Mike and Scott and they effortlessly mixed the symbol into the mythology. But basically everything I added was what I thought would be cool for me to draw!
Sebastián: Exactly! Knowing where the story was going, we tried to think about how to play within those boundaries. For example, sometimes Scott would ask us what we would like to draw, or say that he would need an action scene for this or that issue, and we’d throw in some ideas. Other times we would suggest something like “Let’s make Abe fight something that flies” that’s the way the flying monster of issue #19 came along, and then Scott used it as he needed it for the story; or “I would love to have Abe fighting wolves savagely”, that scene on issue #16.
For “The Shadow Over Suwanee” I asked Scott to do something with ghosts, and he put them on that story too. Or even for the zombie fight sequence on #21, I was blown away with Geof Darrow’s “Shaolin Cowboy” miniseries that came out last year, I said let’s put Abe in the middle of that! and he just happened to have a zombie thing going on with Arbogast for that issue and made it work for the plot. Generally our contributions to the story are mostly visuals or how we can explore a scene visually.
Continued belowI like that you even found space for the Shaolin Cowboy himself to make an appearance.
In this series, again and again I’m astounded by how you find ways to silently connect various story elements, ideas, and emotions. I think both of you are exceptionally talented visual problem solvers.
With your work, Max, “Abe Sapien #12: The Garden (I)” was an amazing piece. It’s several stories, all being told at the same time in a non-linear fashion, and it could have been so confusing, and yet it isn’t at all. The emotional core is utterly clear. Could you tell me about the challenges that the story presented for you and how you tackled them?
Max: “The Garden (I)” came as a result of Scott wanting to tell a short story and me wanting to draw a story with only three panels a page, creating space for big pictures and kind of snapshots of moments of a story instead of telling it in a sequential way. And since it was about three different stories, I really wanted to try something that would feel more like a guest artist doing this issue instead of me. So I worked on each different story with a particular tool that would make a difference in the style. The central story, with Abe and the man, was my regular style for the book; then the Grace flashback was all done with ink washes, to make the art feel dense and connect with the tragic moments. And for the man flashbacks I used sharp pen and quite a lineal art to make it look more edgy. But all this was superbly handled by Dave [Stewart], who colored each story in a different way and, for each one, nailed the mood of the scene. Because of the way Scott told Grace’s story here, the way we hide her emotions in the present, all the concealing, to make it darker and more real, this is one of my favorite issues on the whole run.
Sebastián, something I’ve found fascinating in your approach to the material, is the way that you reference the art of a particular era of the comic. In “The Shadow Over Suwanee”, you used Mike Mignola’s style from the mid ’90s to evoke that period of the comic. The opening pages of issue #24 were all about Abe’s nostalgia for the era, and you used that style to evoke nostalgia in the reader. Can you tell me you this idea came about and how you’ve used it throughout the series?
Sebastián: Mike and Scott like flashbacks a lot. Usually they ask us to use the same panel and camera angle of any “Hellboy” or “B.P.R.D.” panel and we have to bring it back for the flashback but using our own style. In this case it was a bit different; Scott wanted to experiment with a nostalgic feel for issue #24, and asked Dave Stewart and me if we could try to emulate the visual style in “Hellboy: Seed of Destruction” for the flashback scenes. I liked the idea a lot. I was fascinated with what J.H. Williams III did on his “Batwoman” run, bringing back David Mazzucchelli’s “Year One” style to tell Batwoman’s origin story. So here was our chance to do something similar. Besides the logical reference I would need, I went further and went through every book from that era of “Hellboy” for things I could use, like faces or character poses. If you look closely at the Abe flashback scene on issue #24, the way I placed Abe or Liz or Kate and some cameras emulates directly the characters and cameras from “Hellboy: Seed [of Destruction]” and from “The Wolves of Saint August”. The same goes for Abe and Devon and The Black Flame bringing back Guy Davis style. I treated all flashback scenes for “The Shadow Over Suwanee” the same way. It was really interesting, although emulating Mike’s style is easier said than done!
You both have a talent for finding ways to externalize a character’s mental state without a single word being said, like with Grace and the way she was around mirrors. It was a recurring event, and it was a way of silently reinforcing where her mind was.
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One of my favorite things was the way you showed Abe dealing with what he’s become. In the earliest stories, he tries not to acknowledge it, then in “To the Last Man” Abe has a moment where he just stares at his hands. That story was filled with moments where Abe seemed uncomfortable in his own body. It’s not until “Visions, Dreams, and Fishin’” that he even looks at his own reflection, and when he does, it’s a distorted reflection in a broken mirror. The next time he looks at his reflection, it’s after listening to Bruttenholm’s tapes in “Regressions”, and he sees himself so much clearer.
Sebastián: Grace and Abe went through similar stages of denial in the story. In Grace’s case it is only for a short period. But as for Abe, from the beginning, he totally refuses to accept what he’s become. I like the image reflection trick that Scott uses to remind Abe of this all the time, kind of he can’t escape from himself. Sooner or later, staring at his hands or through a broken mirror, his own reflection betrays him and says ‘you’ve become this’.
Max: I think the way I like to see it is that Abe has always known he was a monster, even more so after getting out of the coma. And his denial is the fear that he’s become something he won’t recognize in himself. But after the tapes, he allows himself to see what he is. But what I find fascinating is what he has to ask himself: is he Everett Caul, is he Abe Sapien, or is he something else?
Another detail I like, and this one was there all the way back in the first arc, is the way Abe has been stalked by crucifixes. In his visions, these crucifixes change to become a very specific crucifix, the one from the church in Saint-Sēbastien. At the same time, this is a remarkably subtle detail, the sort of thing a reader would notice on a reread rather than their first reading. Are there any other things in these books you’ve seeded in there, hoping keen eyed readers will notice?
Max: There are a few things here and there, the most obvious one for me is how Abe’s posture changes throughout the whole run, according to what’s happening to him, which serves as a reflection of how he sees himself: a monster or a human being. There is a thing with the church even in the last issues, but I prefer not to give away so much and hope the reader will see these seeds, or interpret them the way they want. It’s a wonderful thing for me as a reader when I am left with enough room or uncertainty after reading something and I get the opportunity of thinking about what I can take from it.
Sebastián: Yes, trying to avoid spoilers, there is a special character we reveal on issue #29, who we have seeded from early on. And regarding details, we often try to plant things on the pages that we borrow form other titles of the Mignolaverse. Mostly to keep certain consistency between books and not that much as a key story element. For example, in issue #16 when Abe arrives in Rosario, the town is full of graffiti, and there you can see a hidden symbol that we’ve already seen in a “B.P.R.D.” book before. Just as a decorative thing, but there for the reader to notice. Also you’ll see the Zinco brand everywhere, hanging on a wall in the background, on a t-shirt, etc.
I know exactly the symbol you’re talking about, the one from the cult in “B.P.R.D. Hell on Earth: Monsters”. I remember spotting it and jumping to all kinds of bizarre conclusions.
I have to mention your covers. You impressed me right from the beginning, but as you’ve progressed through the series they’ve just gotten better and better. So I thought I’d mention a few of my favorites, and we can talk about how they developed, and perhaps even tell me about some favorites of your own.
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Max, I’m a sucker for symbolism, so Abe’s hand resting on the hilt of the B.P.R.D. sword really made this cover for me. That and your rendition of Coatlique/Hecate.
Max: That cover was a lot of fun to do, especially for the Hecate right there behind Abe. I wanted to do all those symbols and as I was doing the sketch for the cover it accidentally touched the B.P.R.D. logo. I rendered the pencils and Scott noticed that I hadn’t made Abe’s hand touch the center of the symbol as in the sketch. I didn’t do that on purpose but it’s obviously more effective with Abe touching the symbol.
Sebastián, you’ve drawn Abe looking monstrous throughout the series, but this image struck me the most. Perhaps it’s because he looks more like a specter than a monster. The image is more evocative than explicit. Plus I love the stark separation between the black and red.
Sebastián: Yes, the idea was for Abe to appear more like a ghost figure looming over the house. If you read “The Garden (I)”, you see that Abe is the snake that comes hunting for the main character. I wanted to portray Abe as ‘evil’ as possible, like a menace for the house over the blood river. In the first sketch, Abe’s hands weren’t there. That was Mike’s idea and it really paid off.
Whenever I can, I try to go for a more symbolic cover than to display some action happening in the story. This cover has to do with that. The ones for issues #2, #3, and #17 are my favorites.
I love it when I can find the core of the story within a single image. Max’s covers for issues #5 and #8 are great at that and also #31. Those are the kinds of covers that when you see them, they spark curiosity and wonder, and after you read the book it all makes sense and you enjoy them again.
I love #31. And yes, once you’ve read the story and have a better understanding of what those fly creatures are, the cover reads on a new level.
Sebastián: Another example is the cover for “Abe Sapien – Volume 8”. You’ll have to read the whole trade paperback to get this feeling but I think that is one of the best we’ve accomplished together.
I’ll have to revisit it after I’ve read issue #36.
Max, I remember distinctly when the solicitations for this arrived. Even from the initial thumbnail, before I clicked on the link to enlarge the image, the horde of frogs had me excited. The moment that sold me on this cover was when I saw it large, and Abe was right there in the middle of it all. I remember getting goosebumps. I didn’t even register he was there in the thumbnail, so it was like he’d suddenly emerged from the horde.
Max: I was dying for them to approve that cover idea, not that they wouldn’t consider doing it, but I was like: I need to do this image with Abe being one of the frogs, I need to do Abe being one of the frogs so much!!
This one’s actually my favorite. I love the nested images, the strong silhouettes, Dave Stewart’s colors. I’m not sure why, but I always feel like a character is emotionally adrift when they are surrounded by white. The details teasing the story are an excellent touch, especially that tape near the Professor’s nose… I had to keep everything I saw in this image to myself for four months after I was shown this cover and it nearly drove me mad.
Continued belowSebastián: Scott and I went over several sketches for this one. He had only told me that the issue was about the professor and what [Bruttenholm] knew about Abe’s past. I wanted to plant clues in the cover but I had little info. Then I thought of putting that name there (the one on the tape you are mentioning). I had to ask for permission to write that label. It’s funny, Scott told me ‘you can put it there, but hide it—not on the nose’. The idea came to me when I was thinking especially about the reactions of Abe’s fans when they saw that name there.
But I think what makes this cover stunning is Dave’s work. He is always a hundred steps ahead. Mostly we don’t think about colors when we’re doing covers because we know that Dave is going to make it work no matter what. But he always turns them into something you weren’t expecting in a mind-blowing way.
Max: That’s one of my favorite covers too. I like a lot what I managed to do on covers #18 to #22. It was one of those opportunities to do covers that are all connected by their design, since they are all for the same arc. And the design on those covers was quite different from what you’d expect of these books. I like how the first two and the last two are mirrors to each other, and the middle cover is the heart of the whole piece. Cover #18 is a favorite of mine.
And I also like a lot what we got in the complete image of “A Darkness so Great” trade paperback cover.
The pencil work I did was good and it worked perfectly with Seba’s inks and then Dave just elevated that concept to the top. I think it’s the best team work we’ve done in all the covers.
I have to mention these covers. I know there’s probably very little either of you can say about them, given these stories are yet to be told, but they certainly suggest big things to come. (Yes, I’m aware that’s a hell of an understatement.)
I suppose what we can talk about is how they both heavily draw from imagery from Mike Mignola. #35 is obviously referencing Mignola’s gorgeous opening pages in “Hellboy in Hell #7: The Hounds of Pluto (Part 1)”, while #36 is drawing on Mignola’s cover for “Hellboy: The Wild Hunt” #7 (which itself draws on images of city ruins that have been appearing in the comics since “The Right Hand of Doom”).
Sebastián: I’m grateful I had the chance to draw these two. That opening scene of “Hellboy in Hell” #7 was so beautiful. To draw that on a cover is one of the best things I’ve done in the whole run.
These last two are both symbolic in a way and evoke directly what happens in the story. Readers will have to wait and see. But I’m happy with the ideas we came up with for these two. For issue #36, we did think about paying homage to Mike’s cover for “The Wild Hunt”. But the idea first came up when Max had to draw the cover for Volume 8. He thought about borrowing the background of Mike’s image to use it for our trade paperback cover, and thought right there we should be borrowing the whole image for the last cover of Abe. Scott was crazy in for the idea. So it was a pleasure to draw it. And again Dave killed it at the end! He used a very limited color palette, but that image really beckons you.
Continued below“Abe Sapien #34: Dark and Terrible Deep” comes out tomorrow.
