David: Hey Matt! Now that we’re past the insanity of yesterday’s Image Expo and we’ve gotten some much needed rest from our coverage of it, it’s time to look back and discuss the events of it. And there is a lot to talk about it, with a litany of new books announced and an array of groundbreaking ideas, as well as a little look at the fallout.
But let’s start with the happy, shall we? As a comic fan, not jaded comic journalist, what did you think of the announcements during the keynote from Eric Stephenson, and what were your favorites?
Matthew: As a comic fan and not a jaded comic journalist, I thought the announcements were pretty cool. I think it’s very indicative of where we’re at in comics right now, the emphasis that is being placed back on creator-owned and it’s pretty much proof positive of everything Eric Stephenson has been preaching for the past few years. Eric has said for years now — and, if you go back, you’ll see it’s true — that creators would stop focusing their careers on Big Two work and go do their own things. And he’s right, and now we have The Big Three.
As for favorite announcement, Casanova. Casanova IV: Acedia is all I needed and all I wanted. Love love love love it.
David: The Big Three thing is something I’m uncertain on, because when you look at sales, they’re still way behind Marvel and DC, so in terms of sales, it’s the Big Two. In terms of quality? It’s the Big One, or the Big I if you want. I think it was a pretty amazing list of titles though, and there is diversity in there. Maybe less gender and racial diversity, creatively, than some would like, but we have horror, fantasy, kids educational comics and many more genres. That’s a pretty impressive list, from an impressive list of creators like Scott Snyder, Grant Morrison and many more.
My favorite announcement, however, is something old, and it’s the same as your pick: Casanova: Acedia is going to be incredible, and with Michael Chabon joining the fun, this could be the best comic of 2014. Or whenever it actually arrives.
Let’s talk about what this means though, and for me, nothing stood out more as a hammer being dropped quite like the 5-year contract both Ed Brubaker and Sean Phillips signed with Image. This means they get to whatever whenever creatively, and it also means that the exclusive wars may just be starting. I guarantee you, more than anything else there, Marvel and DC were most shaking in their boots about that contract. An exclusive contract signed with a creator-owned company? They crapped their pants when they heard that Matt! What do you think this means, and do you agree with me that this was the biggest game changer of all?
Matthew: The Big Three is very much a conscientious thing, I think; it’s our lingo for how we talk about comics. No one outside comics calls Marvel or DC the Big Two, so in terms of insular lingo with Image becoming mainstream (and increasing sales and marketshare steadily/rapidly), I’d agree with the Big Three thought. But I digress.
I think that the exclusive contract is certainly the game changer Image brought to the table this time, sure. I don’t know if I think it was the thing that maybe put up warning flags at Marvel or DC, but it’s certainly an interesting development. It’s actually kind of unprecedented, right? Because for all intents and purposes, it seems to sort of fly against what Image has been all about: creators doing whatever they want. Sure, that’s what it’s all about — Brubaker and Philips doing whatever they want and Image having to put it out — but I also kind of wonder what Image gets out of it?
I was talking to Walt (Richardson, former editor of the site) about it, and we both couldn’t exactly figure out what Image gets out of the deal. That’s what I’m wondering about. Brubaker and Philips are big names in our world, sure, and that Winter Soldier film is coming from Brubaker’s ideaspace so certainly fans of the film might look into his work. It’s easy to think about what Brubaker and Philips get out of this deal, because the possibilities are limitless for them. But what’s the other side, I wonder. Any idea?
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David: Well, that seems silly to me. What do they get? You get two of the most respected and best selling creators in comics signing an exclusive agreement to make comics with you, which means that Brubaker – one of the biggest evangelists for Image, as we’ve heard – and Phillips now represent the potential of Image to everyone else. What’s the big reason why most creators stick to Marvel and DC? Guaranteed paychecks. I’m sure we won’t see this aspect, but signing a contract certainly might mean that money is exchanged, which means you could get guaranteed paychecks there. So basically they become the poster children of today’s Image – where you can have your cake and eat it too.
Not only that, but as I said, you get Brubaker even more invested (remember when I asked Eric Stephenson before last year’s Expo if Brubaker was going to become a partner?), which means even more evangelizing and more spreading of the word. Plus, look at the language in that press release? They have the ability “to do anything they want with total freedom, total control, and total ownership over their projects.” What do you think other creators who aren’t working with Image do when they see that?
They get boners, Matt. Boners.
So what do they get out of it? Ed Brubaker and Sean Phillips are an advertisement for the Golden Age of Image to creators.
Matthew: I expect to see posters of Brubaker and Philips either pointing at us and saying “I WANT YOU FOR IMAGE COMICS,” or showing off their guns and saying “WE CAN DO IT!” Eddie the Riveter has a nice ring to it.
And, I mean, I guess I can get that. That’s certainly very neat. You’d kind of just imagine that Marvel and DC’s reaction would then be a loud groan followed by, “Fine, we’ll offer more money. Jesus..”
David: But they can’t offer more money, can they? Let’s say there is a money exchange involved. Image’s base level is likely lower than the other two, but how much of a difference is the ceiling? How much more money do you think Kirkman made in 2013 than Bendis did? A lot of people are getting involved with creator-owned because of the potential of owning the rights to the next “The Walking Dead” or hell, even “Two Guns.” Marvel or DC can never offer that.
Matthew: I’m sure that for a corporation that is making a good deal of money from movies can find some kind of monetary incentive for most people, but we’re getting wildly off-topic here.
Movie rights are a good incentive, sure. Owning your things are a great incentive. Generally speaking, I would tell anyone that they should own their work unless it is absolutely not an option. But, Kirkman’s success or Brubaker’s success is not a universal success. Not everyone has their talent, not every idea will be as eaten up and devoured as “The Walking Dead,” you know?
So, I get what you’re saying. Image already was a beacon of creator-owned light, and the exclusive deal just kind of adds an extra-special oomph to that light, perhaps signaling a choir in the background or something. I may just be looking at it too pragmatically right now. But that’s beside the point!
David: Hey, you were asking why this is something good for Image! I was telling you why! There are lots of reasons why, and it’s a massive deal.
Now let’s get to the negative: did anything stand out as a disappointment to you, perhaps?
Matthew: I guess I would’ve liked to see more unfamiliar faces. That was one of my comments in that article you and I did, after all. There was no “Planetoid” in those announcements, you know? Though I am ecstatic about Leila Del Duca being there, not just because I am excited about “Shutter” (I am!) but she’s a newcomer to comics and that’s totally awesome to see her on stage announcing her book with Joe.
Continued belowThe thing for me — and, I want to emphasize this as not a disappointment but a general worry/fear — is that I kinda wonder if maybe this is too much?
If I’m allowed to veer more to the critical side here and put away my enthusiasm about these titles that I will assuredly all buy, the reason I stuck up for Image being one of the Big Three at the beginning is because they’re essentially in that territory where they’re putting out so many books that people (you, me, the average reader) want that it’s becoming impossible to actually follow them all. It’s the biggest problem Marvel and DC have in terms of sales or marketshare and it kills titles that don’t deserve to be killed.
I mean, the average reader buys… what, 10-20 books a month? With a guesstimate budget of $100 a month for comics, that’s a ballpark guess. But even if that fan is only buying Image or other creator-owned books from similar publishers, how can they prioritize their reading habits now? It was a problem at Marvel and DC, but we can’t use the “I have to buy all books with Batman” argument here because Batman isn’t part of this world; what do we do when the issue is “I have to buy all the Nick Spencer books”? And what happens when otherwise good creator-owned books start getting crushed under the weight of it all? Pre-orders are king, but this isn’t Poke’mon and you can’t pre-order them all.
I’m really hoping I don’t incorrectly use this term (I think I am, I hope I’m not), but I think Image is inflating the market a bit here. Last year they gave us 50 new creator-owned books, and a solid majority of that was stuff we all wanted to buy; this year they’ll assuredly give us more than that. I’d wager that Image Expo’s crop is the tip of the iceberg. But Marvel and DC will react, they’ll start announcing more and more and more titles and incentives to buy them (Marvel ASSUREDLY will — look how many new books they have slated in the first three months of this year alone, let alone whatever comes in April) in order to match and keep their readers and I genuinely sort of feel like we might be heading towards some kind of implosion.
Is it becoming quantity over quality? Tell me I am crazy. I know you want to. I want you to! Please tell me how wrong I am.
David: You want me to, but I’m not going to entirely.
So on one hand, you are crazy. You can’t compare Image to Marvel/DC in that regard, because Image isn’t a shared universe in the same way that they are. There are elements of that, but I can buy Saga and Chew and Rocket Girl, but I don’t have to buy Shutter or Wytches because of that. They aren’t connected. There’s nothing out there that requires us to buy these books, and when you look at many of these titles – even the ones with big names attached – they are getting more niche-y than ever. Fantasy and horror were the dominant genres this year, and those aren’t universally read genres.
So I think you’ll find Image’s expanding list finding homes with different audiences and different people. I don’t really know what you mean by inflating the market, precisely, as they are making it bigger, but by doing it in a way where there are quality books that scratch different itches, they’re doing it in a sustainable way.
I think the weirdest thing about the world of comics is how people treat them like compulsory buys. We are allowed to say no!
So no, I don’t think it’s a state of too much or quantity over quality (although that is hard to judge, as we’ve read none of these comics yet), but to me, more good comics from good creators that generate excitement…how can that be a bad thing?
The only part I question is what this does to retailers, but I guarantee you Image has plans in place for that. Image has fully embraced the idea of returnability, and that arms retailers with a tool that allows them to combat if they order big on “Wytches” and no one buys it. I understand your perspective, and I doubt you’re the only one who has it, but I definitely think you’re crazy.
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Matthew: See, here’s the thing, though: it’s not just about what we buy. What we buy will ultimately determine what exists.
Lets take an example: Kieron Gillen, Jamie McKelvie and “Phonogram.” Sorry in advance — to both you and our readers — for the upcoming wall of text. 🙁
“Phonogram” is a popular book to bring up by nerds like me because we love it so, and when you bring up different audiences and niche markets, “Phonogram” fits that bill. It’s for people who have my particular interests, my passion for music and comics and pop and dancing and quoting songs and British humour and all of that. But outside of the likeminded audience, “Phonogram” was a critically acclaimed book, basically universally loved, with plenty of people screaming from the mountains “BUY THIS BOOK!” And yet… not enough people did. The second volume saw heavy delays, and it was because Kieron and Jamie (and Matt) couldn’t afford to make it on a regular schedule; they had to go do other things so they could pay rent. This hurt the book even more, and it’s ultimately the reason why something like “Phonogram 3” was put so far on the back burner — we want it, but it’s not just that easy to go and make it.
Now Kieron and Jamie (and I assume Matt back on colors, right?) have a new book together, but will that happen again? And if it does, will it be the same reason? Will it be because not enough people know about it (surely the fans are there after “Young Avengers” at the very least) or because people have to prioritize their buys? Which is not to wish ill on this new title, I want it to succeed and plan to support it, but that’s just me.
But, look — you mention genres, right? I’m a fan of fantasy and Game of Thrones, but hypothetically speaking I don’t think I can buy both “Sovereign” AND “Paradigms.” So what do I do in this situation? No, I don’t have to buy both books — but I want to. I’m a comic reader, I’m a collector, I’m a fan of the writers and artists. I don’t have to do anything, but for the average hobbyist, it’s about wanting.
And I love that you bring retailers up, because I want you to think back on “Saga” #7 and Images initial “no more reprints” decision (link and link, for those that forgot). “Saga” is one of THE most popular comics! It wins, like ALL the awards! But the delay between issues as Fiona and BKV took a break didn’t help sales at all.
People are fond of trade-waiting comics, but trade-waiting in creator-owned comics can often be a death knell. Not always, but sometimes. (RIP “Green Wake,” as an example.) With the amount of (admittedly) quality publications Image will be giving us over the next year, the trade-waiting will potentially go up — not to mention that no one can afford every trade ever when they come out.
So when I bring up Marvel and DC it’s not to talk shared universe. It’s simply the biggest dumb word that has ever come up in comics: it’s going to get hard to tell what “matters.” There’s just too many good looking books (16 new titles were announced today alone!), and it’s going to start weighing on a lot of wallets — first at the reader, then the retailer and then the creators. I doubt Image will ever do what Marvel or DC does on occasion (cancels books before they come out for low sales), but I genuinely fear what t could mean for a book that I love that others don’t feel for, or trade-wait on.
I don’t mean to be Nic Cage in Knowing, but what kind of environment are we headed to with all this?
David: Well, I hate to say it, but your argument is built on a house of cards. Saga went up by A LOT between issue #6 and #7, so that didn’t hurt them. The combination of the built in break and the sentiment they shared in those letters to retailers changed a lot of minds. It went from 40K in sales to 46K, to the point where it is nearly at 55K at this point.
Continued belowAnd regardless, orders aren’t really defined by you or me. They’re defined by retailers, and I can promise you: orders will be high on a lot of these books. I don’t think we’re looking at any Green Wake situations, and I guarantee you – as I said before – that returnability will be a major factor here. Sure, some people may trade wait books (note: Image had 7 of the 10 highest selling trades of 2013), but their floppies are selling at high numbers already. I don’t think this will be a problem, for retailers, readers or the titles themselves.
I just can’t look at this as a problem. What kind of an environment are we headed to? One with a lot more good comics! I’m never going to complain about that.
Let’s talk about two big discussion topics that came out of this, though: the idea that Image isn’t “indie” anymore and that Image is lacking in diversity. What is your take on those two topics?
Matthew: Hmm. The indie thing. Well, first of all, I’d say that “indie” is a shortened version of the word “independent”, which Image still very much is. So, bunk on that one. What people mean is that Image is mainstream — and, yeah, in our little comic bubble it sure is. But there’s nothing wrong with that, is there? For all my previous outcries there of Fear Of An Inflated Planet, Image being the mainstream is hardly a bad thing — I’d rather the comic look like all of Image’s output, for that to be the main impression the layman has about comics. So that’s a big nontroversy.
As for the diversity thing, I mean, OK — yes, Image was a lot of white guys with only two gals. But that hardly mean Image lacks diversity, both across their line-up of creators and within their actual books. Their books feature the most diversity, in fact, and there are plenty of talented men and women of color and not of color working on Image’s titles. Yes, Image Expo is leading with the existing big names as their headline announcements, but to act like this somehow diminishes the talent we regularly see there is just a bit … I dunno, like people want to just be mad, or to see some kind of quota filled? And I think that is a bit weird. I don’t necessarily buy it from everything I know about Image.
See! No more “it’s the end of the world as we know it!” doomsday rants from me!
David: And I was trying so hard to get you to go on one.
The indie thing was especially perplexing to me, as it, as you said, represents independent, which Image definitely is. It’s not like when Sub Pop and Saddle Creek acts got all popular in the early 00’s they all of a sudden weren’t indie labels anymore. Being increasingly popular and a more attractive option for quality creators of all types doesn’t mean they are less independent, it just means that they are at the very least perceived as successful. I think the idea is they’re losing the connotations of what “indie” means, or in James Murphy speak, they are losing their edge, but just like good ol’ James, they’re still bringing it.
Mainstream is such a weird term, though, in the world of comics. It’s still such a small industry that the idea of mainstream or not is so questionable to me. Image has always been comics mainstream (not real mainstream, but comics mainstream), and it’s really pubs like Drawn & Quarterly and Fantagraphics that exist as the non-mainstream. Hell, Zenescope is mainstream!
As for the diversity thing, for me, I’ve spoken to Eric Stephenson a lot of times, and he wants to hire people of all types…so long as they have good stories to tell. I think it’s similar for them like it is for Image and all-ages. The desire is there, but if they don’t have pitches or interest, what are they supposed to do? I think you bringing up the word quota is perfect, as when I saw all that, I had to wonder at what point would Image have a satisfactory amount of creators that fit in every type of person? Shouldn’t we just want the best stories we can get to be told? Regardless of what their ethnicity, gender or race is? How awkward would it be if Image went on a talent search but they excluded “white men” because they’re capped out in that regard?
Continued belowIt’s all very strange to me. I’m happy to see people like Leila Del Duca, Valentine De Landro and Khary Randolph come onboard, and to see more from Marian Churchland, Gabriel Ba, Fabio Moon, Emma Rios, Kelly Sue DeConnick and Jordie Bellaire. I have to wonder if they feel like Image only wants to hire white men.
But that’s that. Let’s close this puppy down. At the end of the day, Mr. Meylikhov, do you feel like this event has changed anything in regards of your opinion of Image? I would say I feel great about where Image is, although my disappointment – which I never mentioned – is I was hoping for some sort of rad digital initiative. I dig like Tech Jacket going digital first, though!
Matthew: Yeah, I think my opinion changed a bit, which we’ve already discussed. I think Image is going through a big upward momentum phase right now after steadily increasing in the public eye over the years, and now they’re obviously reaping the benefits of it all. The amount of creators they had today, the proverbial bombshells dropped… that’s a lot of quality comic creators about to tell some new (assumedly) quality comics.
I still think there will be big ramifications for it, obviously. I think by December, the comic landscape will be different in some way, and not just in a general “its been twelve months” kind of way — I mean real, significant change. Whether Image’s announcements today have impacts on other companies or whether Image’s announcements today could potentially cause backlash on themselves is up for debate; I know I’m harping on it, but with SO MANY TITLES that people will want to buy I think that it’s going to create a negative impact somewhere when it all hits.
But, hey. I’m happy to be wrong, and happy to admit that that is pessimistic.
So, yes — my thoughts on Image are different. Not in a bad way. I still support them, and am very excited about these new books. I’ll need to get a second job to afford them all and probably knock a wall down to make space for them, BUT I AM EXCITED REGARDLESS.
David: I can tell you that this is the first time I’ve ever seen comics trend at the top of Twitter for something that wasn’t someone screwing up, and that has to be good, right? #imageEXPO and Image were both at the top of the U.S. charts for a spell around the keynote, and that is totally awesome. Here’s hoping with a litany of great looking new books and a lot of buzz, Image finds a way to move up in the industry and, at the same time, bring in some new readers. Now that would be a hell of a thing.
