David: Now that we’ve been doing this for five years Matt – Multiversity, not the MC2 – we can actually look back and say we’ve been analyzing things for a while. And naturally, Marvel’s work has been a big part of that, and what a five years it has been, with their movies blowing up, Marvel Now! changing things up big time, and enough events to fatigue even the hardiest of Marvel fans.
In our look back though, let’s start with the big question though: do you think Marvel is in a better place today than they were when we started?
Matthew: I want to say yes, but I want to add that there’s a big asterisk next to that yes.
I think, from a purely monetary place, yes, Marvel is doing well. They basically found a way to copy DC’s relaunch without having to enrage fans, so they got some cake and ate it too and that’s always fun. They’ve also really increased their public interaction, which I love, and it’s not really something you get from most comic companies. In addition to that, there’s a lot going on at Marvel that is pretty much celebrated all around: “Hawkeye,” #CarolCorps, Hickman’s dueling Avengers — and, oh, yeah, the massive success of Marvel Studios. Damn.
But, there’s an asterisk, and I think that there are still certain things at Marvel that are as bad as they were five years ago. I think they treat their creatives better, but the musical chairs they play with artists is arguably worse today than it was five years ago. Double-shipping is often nightmarish for a consumer’s wallet, let alone the long-term stability of a creative team. I’ll also be ‘that guy’ out of the two of us to say it is odd Marvel hasn’t turned some of their massive financial film success on the creators that made that possible (I know they don’t have to, but it’d be nice and easy PR victory for them to do something).
So, overall: yes. Marvel is in a better place. They’re pushing themselves forward, and doing so at a breakneck pace. But a lot of the old skeletons are still in that closet, if that makes sense.
What do you think?
David: I think pretty much all of what you have to say is accurate, but I’m not going to give them an asterisk at all. They’re definitely in a better place, both as a business and a publisher. When I look back at my decade list for ongoings, which is really the only real barometer I have for where they were below, Marvel has almost no presence on it. But since then, Marvel has seen a lot of quality comics come from their line, and the health of their lines – from the Avengers to the X-Men to everyone else – is arguably better than they’ve ever been, or at least from a general consensus standpoint.
The indiefication of their B-List titles has went a long way to making those books more interesting and of a higher quality, and they are trusting in their creators to do more from a world building standpoint.
Meanwhile, Marvel Studios is crushing and DC is acting a damn fool perpetually, which makes them look even better by comparison. Life is easy there.
They’ve faltered in parts for sure – although I disagree that anyone is owed any money for the success of their films, as I am sure people like Ed Brubaker and Mark Millar would agree with – but really, if the question is are they in a better place today than they were then, then it’s impossible to say anything else but yes. Better comics, better business prospects, better everything.
Before we get more into the positives those, let’s examine the negatives of their five years a bit more. For me, the two biggest are the aforementioned double-shipping and the devaluation of the artist to almost secondary creator levels. While I understand the latter to a degree – it is impossible for artists to operate consistently at the schedule they require – it’s hard not to feel like that isn’t a self-created problem, especially with the double-shipping. It doesn’t look like those ideas are going anywhere any time soon. In your perspective, do you see that as being something that could negatively impact them any real substantial way over the next five years, or is that more of a situation where it’s a price of doing business as a Marvel fan?
Continued belowMatthew: I think that, at this point, it’s the price of doing business as a Marvel fan. Which, I’ll admit, is an incredibly defeatist answer; it’s basically me just flat-out stating that it’s not something I really enjoy but I’ll deal with it because I want to read the comics. That is, honestly, probably not the best position to hold as someone who is a fan of anything.
If you ask me, as someone not in charge of a multi-million dollar company, who has no board members or parent companies to answer to, I think double-shipping should go the way of the dinosaur. I think Marvel should invest in their artists, to give them the same treatment and god-like idol status as their writers. They do it to a small extent, I suppose; they brought back the Young Guns, after all. But it always feels like we’re taking one step forward, two steps back. It drives me up the wall to see random changes on books I buy that are done due to this insane schedule; I mean, the last two issues of “Superior Foes”, despite being solicited as by Nick Spencer and Steve Lieber, were anthologies by random creatives. I didn’t pre-order the book for random creatives — I want my Spencer and Lieber “SupFoes.”
It’s not always the case, mind you. “Hawkeye” certainly was delayed to hell and back, and Marvel was definitely aware of why people were buying that book. But they still treat a lot of their titles where creators, artists especially, are an afterthought, and that can never be something that is fixed as long as they’re intent on double shipping. And I think we’re at the point where even writers are starting to feel it; Fraction pulled out of books (though he seems to be re-focusing his career in general), Jason Aaron left “Wolverine” and his “Thor” is missing while “Original Sin” is happening. This isn’t great.
But, I mean, look: it works them, right? It’s how they got the upper-hand against DC, basically inflating their sales, and at the same time it allows us to get a lot more stories quicker. Hickman’s “Avengers” launched in December of last year, but we’re already at issue #28; if it were chugging along at a regular rate, we’d still be in the teens. We’ve had over two years worth of stories in about a year’s worth of time, and I think there’s probably something to be said for that?
David: There is certainly something to be said for it, but really, any benefits that are gained by Marvel financially are not felt by us as readers. Explicitly from a reader’s perspective, I’d rather have 12 great issues of a comic a year from a group of creators doing their absolute best than 24 from a group churning stuff out, especially given that it devalues the artist’s role. I know in today’s age, very few artists can churn out 12 issues a year, but I’d still like it to be less of a rotation than we currently see it.
I don’t see double-shipping going away, though. It’s just too ingrained into how they do business now, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some readers actually reject going back to the status quo if they did.
Let’s move over to the positive side and talk about the things we really like about what Marvel’s been doing. I’ll start with this, as I love the expansion and enhancement of their secondary line. Books like “She-Hulk” and “Ms. Marvel” are the books that really float my boat in today’s Marvel universe, and let’s face it: in 2008, those books would not or could not have existed. Whether you want to call it “indiefication” or whatever, I’m down with it. Those books may not be the ones that “matter” to readers, but they are amongst the very best things Marvel publishes, and I’m glad to see that Marvel is trying new and exciting things with books they can experiment with.
In fact, while you still see events and double-shipping and other tactics designed around building up their bottom line, it feels like Marvel is making a concerted effort to have more fun and take more chances with their books. This isn’t your fathers Marvel comics, and we’re all the better for it. What do you think?
Continued belowMatthew: I think that’s a relatively fair analysis, honestly. I definitely like the term “indiefication” as I think that encapsulates a lot of it in a recognizable fashion, but it also goes down to something that I’m a big fan of Marvel for doing — and that’s acknowledging their fan base.
Marvel may run themselves like a business at the end of the day, but for the most part you may be excused for not noticing it sometimes. Their direct relationship with their readers is off the charts; there are no major NDAs, their creatives usually speak highly of their editorial relationships, and you don’t hear any major horror stories about behind the scenes events. Not only that, but their top brass host weekly chats with Comic Book Resources, and even if some of the answers are boiler plate or even something similar to consistent electioneering, they are at least making the active effort.
You say that this isn’t your father’s Marvel, and I suppose that is true because my father never read comics as a child of Soviet Russia. But in a less literal sense, it’s not my father’s Marvel because Marvel today isn’t afraid to acclimate to the times. They may celebrate age old characters and even allow for their books to actively return to older ideals at times, but they’re very much about pushing forward alongside their audience as opposed to against it — and that’s honestly not something that I feel from their Distinguished Competition, who seem more introverted than ever.
To me, that’s everything.
Well, that and Kid Loki. I miss the little guy so much.
David: I think you hit the nail on the head there: Marvel is evolving, and DC is not. I hate to constantly harp on the whole “DC is struggling” thing, but you can see it in each of their decisions, especially when reflected in what Marvel is doing. Instead of focusing on more war torn veteran creators and falling back on old ideas, Marvel’s pushing their stories and finding different voices to bring their stories to life. Sure, books like “All-New Ghost Rider” and “Hawkeye” may not sell as well as “Batman Eternal”, but those books resonate with the people who read them, and that type of branding will lead to longer term success.
Marvel’s playing the short game and the long game, and while they’re still suffering in some ways – double-shipping, over-reliance on events, movies informing the comics, rising prices, devaluing artists – they are doing a pretty bang-up job in making comics we want to read, and providing something for everyone.
Over the past five years, we’ve seen Marvel grow from a revenue standpoint, we’ve seen the meteoric rise of Marvel Studios, the quality of their books on average go up dramatically, and them taking chances throughout. What more could we want from them, Matt?
Matthew: Ha. Well, we could want them to address all the things we brought up in this column in a positive way, certainly? Less double-shipping if not the flat out abandonment of that idea, less events, separation between cinema and comics and appreciation of their artists. Honestly, I’d love to see a bigger emphasis from them on the role of the artist in their comics more than anything else. It’s “Creative Team,” not “Writer God and Co.”
But from a different standpoint, one more steeped directly within their content and characters, there’s not too much else I’d like to see besides maybe new characters. For all the All-New hoopla we see branded on everything, there are only a few examples of things that are actually all new; Ghost Rider/Robbie Reyes, for example, and Miles Morales: the Ultimate Spider-Man. I want to see new heroes to inspire and excite a new generation of readers; I grew up with Peter as Spider-Man and I’ll always be fond of Peter Parker, but I’m not against the idea of someone replacing him already. Miles is a good toe dip in that water, but I’d love to see more commitment. Same with Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze is hanging out with the Thunderbolts) and other heroes — it’s time to pass the torch.
That’s Marvel’s next step. If they really want to take their product to the future, they need to get comfortable with leaving some things in the past and not fall back on alternate or parallel universes and other excuses. Miles Morales For Spider-Man in the 616, 2015!
