David: Matt, this is going to be a trial by fire if I’ve ever experienced one, as for this week’s MC2 column, March Madness continues with THREE MORE NUMBER ONES. So many debut issues! And there are even more coming, which makes it even more outrageous.
Matthew: Sure, absolutely. I was in favor of and actively encouraging people to buy “Secret Avengers” because I actively feel like this is the book that the market has been asking for with its active and frequent adulation of the comic “Hawkeye.” The style, the design, the humor, the darkness at the edges — all of it sort of matched up with “Hawkeye” but utilizing a team dynamic, and after a few direct references to “Hawkeye” I think it became pretty clear what the book was trying to be. And I think there’s something to be said for that, and I think that with this cast of characters and with this creative team there’s a lot of potential in this book’s future. Michael Walsh and Matt Wilson did a killer job on the book, and I found it to be a rather exciting and entertaining first issue for what I dubbed as both “Hawkeye Team-Up” and the superhero team book for the Hawkeye Generation — pick whichever of the two analogies you prefer.
I’ve also seen people say that referring to this book as something in sync with “Hawkeye” is lazy, but I think it’s a pretty apt and easy summary in order to help sell readers on the book. Which is what I was hoping to do! (In addition to any other forms of commentary, but honestly, who reads my reviews for that?)
What did you think?
David: You know, the thing is I wouldn’t disagree that it shares a lot of the feel of “Hawkeye”, but I’m not sure I’d call it a “Hawkeye Team-Up” book as he feels almost like a secondary character, or certainly like a member of an ensemble to be more accurate.
As for the book, I liked it a lot, but I wouldn’t say it completely floored me. It felt a little frenetic at parts, like it was nearly running off the rails with so much going on in the first issue. But that same feeling made it a whole lot of fun, and surprisingly so for both a Secret Avengers title and for an Ales Kot book, who was someone I enjoyed the work of but didn’t know this type of thing would be up his alley. He did a great job of balancing style and substance, and juggling four disparate story lines in one issue that overlapped at parts. Both of those things, if handled incorrectly, would have made the issue crumble, but instead Kot built energy through his handling of them.
It helps a lot when you have Michael Walsh and Matt Wilson as the art team, and this is a book that really plays to the strengths of them. It’s an inventive book, visually, that feels very grounded in its fantastical elements. The layouts of the issue actually kind of gave it a strangely episodic, TV show like look (which I mean in a very good way), especially at the end as all of the stories culminated for the first issue. This is a very good looking book, with art that fits the concept very well. Bravura work from the art team.
However, I think, and this is a petty complaint, the issue threw me off from the start when the set-up page at the very beginning had improper usage of “he’s.” By the end, it had certainly earned my admiration, but whenever there are typos in Marvel books, I kind of scrunch my face because I feel like someone should especially catch that in one of their books.
I’m a jerk.
Matthew: I honestly do not even know how to address that complaint! And I was afraid that my coloring comment last time would be too much of a nitpick.
Continued belowDavid: Hey! It’s part of the comic! What am I supposed to do? Ignore it! It’s a very, very good comic, but I’d be lying if I didn’t mention that. I keep it real Matt.
Matthew: “Avengers Undercover!” I dug it, man, I really did. “Arena,” it took a few issues but I got really into it. I was glad the book never compromised either, with any last second “it was all a virtual reality!” nonsense. Way to stick to the guns.
So “Undercover” follows that pretty well. Hopeless and Walker work really well together, and I did like how it just picked up what happens next. I think Hopeless and Walker both have such a great handle on their iteration of all of these characters, who they are and what makes them tick, and that gives the book a very real feeling to it. Sure, these aren’t necessarily the same characters they were a few years ago, but with who they are now I think that Hopeless and Walker have this very definitive, well defined take, and it’s very much “Arena” Season 2, picking up where we last left them and it feels like a natural and smooth transition.
(Although, I can’t imagine that if you didn’t read “Arena” this is very accessible, right? The series is very much hedging on that bet, for better or for worse.)
I had sort of expected a bit more fallout, though. I feel like maybe there was a chunk missing of storytelling? We see the kids and how they’re holding up, and there is dialogue to explain some of the stuff that happened over the passage of time, but I couldn’t help but wonder why SHIELD or the Avengers or someone wasn’t trying to be a more direct influence in the lives of these kids, especially after “Academy,” right? But I suppose there’s always time for that.
Also, for what it’s worth, I don’t think the issue does a good job of establishing what I thought was going to be the premise. Maybe I just misread solicits or whatever, but I thought the whole point was that all of our teen heroes were posing as bad guys? Instead, they’re just kinda bratty. Which is fine, don’t get me wrong; I found the issue entertaining. I just didn’t get that we were building towards the alliance with Zemo and his new Masters, you know? “Arena” threw us right into Murder World, so I expected a similar approach.
David: Well, I think that’s another case – sort of like with “Moon Knight” last week – where your expectations are interfering with what the book actually is. I mean, it’s not up to us to decide what the book is, and I think the solicits were just there to show what the general direction of the book is. They’ll get there, I’d imagine.
For me, I loved it. I thought this was far and away the best debut of the month so far, with Hopeless and Walker continuing with what made “Arena” so strong – telling the story from the characters out – and with some great little twists to their formula. For example, I thought Walker’s work incredibly took a step up here. There was some paneling and layout choices that I thought showed great development in the already fantastic work he does, and it made it all the more thrilling of a read.
And for Hopeless, I think getting the chance to show who these kids are after the events of “Arena” in the context of their previous lives made things all the better. That bit with Chase where he brought up Nico skipping Molly’s birthday was particularly powerful, as that was both something that incriminated Nico for the internal darkness she has post “Arena” and Chase for being such a ratings whore Chase.
I also thought he did a good job of making it accessible, as I felt like the viral nature of the Murder World videos made for a great introduction to what came before it. Matt, I thought this book was rad.
Continued belowI have to say though, I strongly disagree on the idea that it was missing a chunk of storytelling, and once again it kind of feels like you’re applying your logic to the story. Two of the characters were from Runaways, whom the Avengers and S.H.I.E.L.D. had plenty of opportunities to help, but mostly never did because they didn’t want it. Clearly Hazmat is in a dark place, and wasn’t into the Academy situation without Mettle. Death Locket actually did get help from S.H.I.E.L.D., as they showed. Cammi went home, and she’s not even super-powered so why would they care. Lastly, both Anachronism and Cullan went back to the Braddock Academy, their support system, but the latter bailed to go after Arcade. To me, they did an excellent job of establishing where they are in the context of who they are.
So I guess my question is, what did you view as missing from that bit, besides them all being in Avengers therapy?
Matthew: I think you and I could get into a very big discussion about “canon” and “continuity” here that’s largely unnecessary. For one, in terms of our two Runaways, there was a two-issue arc about how the Avengers (Hank Pym, specifically) felt the Runaways needed to be contained and educated with the rest of the Academy class, then there was a whole issue of “Arena” about Molly searching for her friends, as the first time the events of “Arena” seemed to be acknowledged in the outside world. Add Hazmat into this, who has had a worse go of it than anyone, and I can’t help but wonder — where was Pym in all of this? Did he lose interest in these children he attempted to teach? If you’d been as close to some kids as he was and then saw something horrible happen to them, wouldn’t you try and be there for them all the time?
But — I think this is a largely frivolous discussion, and it’s the same kind of stuff that mired “Arena” for some fans (“so and so is not acting like they did in Book X!!!”), because it ultimately doesn’t matter.
All I meant was, going in I expected that there would be a bit more acknowledgement that these kids went through something horrible, instead of their horror “just becoming some sort of pop culture craze. It was something the book openly acknowledged, sure, with Hopeless going so far as to writing a scene that very much felt like something pulled straight out of a forum (“Well, if I was there, I would’ve done…”). And maybe that’s the point, right? As much as “Arena” was commentary on the Kids Fighting Kids zeitgeist we’ve seen in the media (films, books, TV, et al), “Undercover” seems like it was pretty down on idolizing celebrities born out of negative pop culture; it couldn’t have been more unsubtle if it featured Perez Hilton as a character, you know? I just found it odd that everyone seemed to not care about these kids, that they were allowed to remain broken, especially after the treatment in the Marvel Universe of the New Warriors after “Civil War” and Bobby Baldwin especially. They never let him live that stuff down! (Except now, when they pretend it didn’t happen.)
But, again, this is largely veering into speculative fan territory rather than actual discussion of the quality of the book, which I found very entertaining. I really did like having this team back, and even if it was with a different title and a new #1, it felt like a natural enough continuation of everything I liked in “Arena,” give or take a few (what I consider) logic jumps. And Kev Walker has gotten pretty amazing over the series, as you pointed out; I liked him before this book, but damn, he has really been stepping it up.
David: Well, I do think this is different than the “canon” versus “continuity”/fan speculation discussion. I think my main point is you can’t judge a book off of what you want it to be, but you can off of what it is. If it was all about Hank Pym supporting the kids, it wouldn’t be this, which is what we got.
Continued belowAnd yeah, I know the Runaways stuff happened in Academy, but that’s why I referenced that they wanted to be left alone (as that’s what they said at the end of it).
I do think you bring up an excellent point about this being a response to idolizing celebrities born out of negative pop culture, though. Is this Marvel’s answer to “Teen Mom”? I’m pretty sure Dennis will LOVE reading that analogy, but I don’t think that is terribly off base. Great point.
Either way, we both liked it, with varying degrees of trepidation for each of us (meaning none for me, a bit for you). That’s fair enough, but it’s undoubtedly a good team on a good book with a good cast that we clearly care about. At least more than Hank Pym does.
Matthew: Yeah, I’ve been a rather unabashed fan of Carol Danvers for a while now, right? Loved Brian Reed’s “Ms. Marvel” book, for example; think it’s largely one of the most underrated Marvel runs of the past 5+ years.
As for the new “Captain Marvel” #1, I’ll be honest — I think it’s a lot better than the previous “Captain Marvel” #1. I think this is a very accessible comic book, and I would imagine that’s largely the point; Kelly Sue put Carol through the ringer in the last volume, but this one sort of picks up that Fresh Start option she delivered with enough left over to appease new fans without (I don’t think) turning off the new. I like the idea that the book begins in the future before flashing back in time to why Carol is in space now, as well.
I really, really like David Lopez on the book, though. I think he’s a very great fit for it. Lopez does a great job handling the action sequences of the book with the more tender moments, and I think it’s because Lopez has a strong grip on the identities of these characters and their emotions within. The relationship between Carol and Rhodey that is explored in particular was something that I thought was done really well.
Most of all, I think that Carol as a character has become very iconic to a modern generation of readers, and that has become very important to her identity. Kelly Sue and David are very much redefining her role with this first issue, and I think the transition goes very smoothly: she’s still inspired, she’s still inspiring, and she’s still my favorite gal in the Marvel U, nearly a decade running now.
So, yeah, as much as I sort of eyeroll every otherwise unnecessary new #1 (this is basically #18, for all intents and purposes), this one I very much “get.” How about you? Are you turned around as a member of the Carol Corps yet?
David: I think it’s funny that you call this accessible, because I had literally no idea what was going on with it. I was utterly perplexed from page one. It doesn’t help that the story starts in media res, then jumps back six weeks to establish what was going on there with a bunch of things and characters new readers wouldn’t understand. That’s like creating a nightmare scenario for me as a reader. Who was the little girl and mom living with Carol? Why are they living in the Statue of Liberty? Who are the people they are referencing at the birthday party for the old lady I don’t know? Rhodey and her are dating? This felt like I jumped into the third episode of the second season of a TV show and tried to watch it, not the first issue of a new volume of a comic.
Which is a shame, as I feel like a lot of that context could have been covered in just an introduction page at the beginning, or even in-between the flashforward and the present day stuff. Instead, we just got a pretty credits page.
Continued belowIt’s too bad too, as David Lopez was utterly magnificent in this issue. Like I was saying with Walker’s work, you can see significant growth even from recent work he’s done. It helps that he was working with Lee Loughridge, whose colors really made Lopez’s art pop, but even ignoring that, his storytelling – particularly in small moments, like the one shared between Rhodey and Carol – was better than ever, and he’s still one of the absolute best at expressive yet realistic characters. Tony Stark’s “heh heh heh” face as he flew away was priceless.
And DeConnick brought a lot to the table too, as I enjoyed Carol’s relationship with Kit, and the personality that each character quickly is given. The characters feel very lived in and certainly fun to read. Her character work to me has always been her strength as a writer, and that continues on in this book.
But it’s not enough to overcome my struggle as a new reader, and the fact that the issue felt very slight for a $3.99 comic. It kind of kills me, because I feel like I could have really liked this if it just had a useful “Previously on…” style page. Instead, I shake my head and move back to not reading it.
Matthew: Well, what’s funny to me is that… all that stuff you want to know about is the exact same comment I had about “Undercover.” Sure, we met Kit and her mom in the previous volume, but living in the Statue of Liberty together? And dating Rhodey? And a birthday?! Aaallllllllll that stuff is brand new, thrown at regular readers just as much as it was the new! Plus, there was Kit’s illustrated origin of Captain Marvel that was included in the issue that covered anything you really needed to know, because ultimately those characters didn’t need much of an explanation: they are Carol’s friends. And this is Carol’s life on Earth. I don’t think a “Previously on…” would’ve helped as much as you would’ve liked it to, personally.
So I find it funny now how the tables have turned, since there’s really no other context out there but you still want it. But, hey, to each his own. Obviously I read the entire last volume so I have a leg up and can speak from this position of faux superiority on that regard, which isn’t helpful at all, but I do think it’s notable that this is pretty much a curve ball for the regular readers as much as it would be for the new.
Which, in turn, brings me back to why I found this to be the only one of the re-launches that made sense to me. Yes, it’s very much a #18, but at the same time it did feel like the start of a new season (not a few episodes in, like you said); this is a new direction for Carol, and as such we spend the issue basically just establishing what she left behind so her journey into space matters a bit more.
That’s why I like the first issue a lot, anyway. It seems you disagree in the accessible aspects of the book, but I think Lopez and Kelly Sue did a great job of just redefining what kind of a person Carol is so that she could leave it all behind and we could see that it mattered, that it wasn’t an easy sacrifice but a necessary one. Context can be picked up just from reading the issue and seeing how the characters interact with one another, because like you said, that’s very much Kelly Sue’s biggest strength: she writes great and real people. Add that with Lopez’s wonderfully humanistic artwork and I think the book is one of the strongest relaunches, and certainly the one that feels the most personal endeavor of them.
So, I mean, I’d say you should at least give it another issue, but I know you’re kind of a stickler when it comes to giving books too many chances.
David: I’m not even kidding: as I was writing that last night, I thought “Matt is totally going to turn that on me.”
But to me it’s still different. At least in “Avengers Undercover” they explained in the narrative what preceded it. This made me feel like EVERYTHING preceded it, and that we wouldn’t get it from the book and that I was just lost. It’s even stranger to me that they just dropped everyone in with all of these new things changed from even the previous finale. It wasn’t a good feeling.
Continued belowLike I said, absent of that feeling, I probably would have enjoyed the comic. It’s charming. That’s the definitive word for the book in my eyes. It is a tremendously charming book. But one that makes me feel – and I know you feel differently, but you did read the previous series so you are coming from a different point – like a man drowning with a really appealing life preserver just out of reach.
We’ll be back next week with even more reviews of #1’s. Get pumped people. It’s Marvel March Madness!
| Book | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Secret Avengers | |||||
| Avengers Undercover | |||||
| Captain Marvel | |||||
For week one’s reviews, please click here.
