David: There was a lot of big news from NYCC, Matt, and much of it was from Marvel. That place was blowing the doors off the joint, even if it didn’t get any of the sweet, sweet big movie news, but you could maybe argue that the confirmation of the “ending” of “Fantastic Four” takes the cake. Much rumored before, it was revealed that this book is taking its place in the great pullboxes in the sky next year in “The End is Fourever” or whatever exactly their finale is. So naturally, I wanted to talk about this, but I’m going to take it in a direction you may not expect.
Do you think the Fantastic Four is still an integral part of the Marvel universe? Compared to their history, do you think they’re as relevant as ever? Important questions, Matt, and I don’t just mean from your perspective. Think global on this one.
Matthew: First of all, I just have to say: I don’t like the title. Like, I get it, ha ha, so punny, but I don’t like it. Hickman already went down that road. Now let me bore you with a long, overwritten answer.
Your question is a decent one, and I’m not sure I can answer it in an unbiased fashion so let me get that out of the way up front. Me? I’m a big Fantastic Four fan; one of my favorite teams, and easily one of the most important institutions in Marvel comics. And again, to your question, historically the Fantastic Four are the MOST relevant! They launched the Marvel Universe, they were the first group to be together and to stick together for bonds that are as deep as blood; they’re family, and that’s such a big and important aspect to that group. Each one has a unique power, a unique ability, a unique mindset and unique talents, and while alone they’re strong, together they’re unbeatable! It’s something that other groups can’t really match and there’s this unique love and respect that they have for one another as such a tight knit, unchanging small group.
That said, I do kind of have to shrug as to whether or not they’re integral anymore, and that probably says it all: “Are they important?” “Ehh….” And I think the reason they don’t matter anymore is that we as a readership and Marvel as an entity have sort of abandoned the notions of the family unit that they represent; its not very modern at all, at least not in how it is being presented. I think the family aspect of the team is not something readers find appealing, nor is it something Marvel is interested in pushing. Separate as individual characters, yes, I think they are still relevant — and that’s backwards and baffling to me, but never the less somewhat true. I think someone like Reed and Sue Richards will always be important because they have unique facets of the Marvel Universe that they both can bring to the table, but Johnny and Ben are throwaway; we have “strong gruff New Yorker” characters, we have “flying fire smart-ass” characters, but Reed and Sue are hyper-intelligent and strong-willed and that sets them apart. The Nuclear Family aspect of the team can’t sell the book today because neither readers nor Marvel are particularly engaged to that idea, and without that as a core aspect to their book at all times and without a readership that wants to read about a family working together, then… then we don’t need them as a team. We don’t need the Fantastic Four.
I love the Fantastic Four, man. I dunno if that’s clear or not. And I realize that, as someone who wants comics to be progressive and go forward into the future, that me arguing that the Fantastic Four needs to be stuck in these sort of binary, rigid and dated notions of familial relationships is a bit odd; that’s not my point. But, well, I think comics are either about being dark and edgy or about being relentlessly modern and hip and cool, and I think the FF are about hope and love and teamwork so that’s not going to work. Reed’s not going to tweet, Sue isn’t going to get a new cool costume with Doc Martens (the closest we got was Johnny’s red boots in Hickman’s run!). And while I think James Robinson has been nailing the balance of a “mature” book with all the aspects of the family relationship I love in his current run, I guess I can understand why people wouldn’t be into the idealized or otherwise antiquated elements of the Fantastic Four even beyond Ike Perlmutter telling Marvel to distance them from the team (which, well, fuck that).
Continued belowWhat do you think?
David: I honestly think Marvel killing the Fantastic Four in some capacity for a while is a totally fine thing. Besides Hickman’s run, I don’t think they’ve been extremely relevant for a while – and you can see that in their sales, as they’re barely top 100 sellers any more, and from retailers I’ve heard it isn’t a book that sells particularly well there either – and I think that maybe they could use some time off, perhaps. The thing is, as a book, it is very possible for Fantastic Four or FF (perhaps especially FF) to be not just relevant, but integral to Marvel’s identity in 2014. But to publish the book now as they do just feels like releasing a book because it’s something they’ve always done. I’d rather see Invisible Woman off doing things in the Avengers books or a new Marvel Team-Up book with The Thing as the consistent lead or something like that than just see the Fantastic Four going through the motions.
Like with any Marvel property, the Fantastic Four is as relevant as the people who create it. I’m just sad to say that for the last while – since Hickman left – the book is just not that, even as the Future Foundation book was very much so.
Why they made the decision, I’m not sure. Based off the overall hubbub, it sounds like Ike Perlmutter is a monster looking to raze non Marvel owned film properties to the ground. But I doubt he’s the reason. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if they had a plan for this, just like I wouldn’t be surprised if they had one for She-Hulk.
So you love the Fantastic Four. Does that mean you’re angry they canceled it? I know you read it, so you’re legit, but I do think it’s funny that so many people get upset when a book like this or She-Hulk gets canceled and both are books that don’t sell particularly well. Somebody is fibbing!
Matthew: Am I angry? Mmm… not particularly, no. Cancellation is par for course, which is a defeatist statement I know. But at the same time, I pre-order the books I want and support them the best I can by talking about them with friends and on the site, so while I sometimes get a bit sad that a certain book didn’t reach an audience like it did me, for the most part I am happy that I had it while I did.
That said, I don’t know if that’s apathy in general though. The thing about Marvel in 2014 is that you kind of have to go into the book assuming it is doomed, in a manner of speaking. I’m not saying you shouldn’t pre-order or that you should tradewait, but there’s almost always a sense of finality there; we’re not really in the age of long, sprawling, aimless runs anymore unless you’re one of a small handful of creators (at Marvel, you basically have to be Bendis or Hickman, it seems). Almost all books start with a sense that they have a single story in mind and you sort of cross your fingers that it’ll get told — and when they do, and you get books like “Journey into Mystery” or “Superior Foes of Spider-Man” or whatever, books that aren’t incredibly long but you’re ultimately just happy for the time you spent with the book and its characters and its creators.
In terms of “Fantastic Four,” I’d say it’s reasonably certain that there’s always been a plan in place, one that deconstructs the team and then builds them back up. Hickman and Fraction both essentially wanted to prove why the family aspect of the team is important, and Hickman did it to great success while Fraction’s run sort of fell apart (which was equally hurt by him leaving the book due to scheduling issues); Robinson clearly has the same idea, but he’s doing a darker angle on it — and given that the final arc is “The End is Fourever”, I’d imagine he’ll build the family back up before leaving it again. If he can tie all the loose pieces back together again, then great: we have a solid run on the book that I can hand to people and say, “This, this is why the FF matter.”
Continued belowAnd then we can cross our fingers that the movie doesn’t suck, I guess.
David: Honestly, the movie doesn’t really matter too much to me. While I don’t subscribe to the idea that all of the comic movies and TV shows are making them feel less special as a whole, I can say that the Fantastic Four movies are not ones I’m particularly excited for, even if I did quite like Chronicle.
I think the interesting thing about all of this, and about She-Hulk getting canceled as well as I alluded to earlier, is that it really seems that this isn’t the end by any means for the series. Tom Brevoort had a funny response to a person on Formspring who apparently bet with him that the FF are donezo and claimed that he won thanks to the cancelation. Brevoort’s response was effectively “I know the whole story and you don’t, so you haven’t won yet.” It feels like a transition, not the end really.
Let’s take this a fun direction to close this whole thing, though. So we both agree that maybe the Fantastic Four aren’t quite as integral as they used to be. Who do you think would make a good creative team to make them relevant again, at least for a time, and what would you like to see them bring to the book?
Matthew: That… is really tough. And I have racked my brain over it. I have stood in my office and looked at my shelves and longboxes and asked myself who we need for this job.
And, truth is, there are lots of creators I’d love to see tackle the Fantastic Four. Warren Ellis, for example, wrote the team for the Ultimate U and I really enjoyed it — but the days of a long Ellis run on any title are behind us, so that won’t make them relevant. I also think that someone like Peter David could do a phenomenal job on the book, especially now with X-Factor gone, but I don’t know if he’s the headline name Marvel wants.
But the job is to bring the Fantastic Four back to prominence, not just appeal to me sensibilities, so for that I think the answer is Jason Aaron and Nick Bradshaw, the dynamic duo of my favorite “Wolverine and the X-Men” arc. Aaron is Marvel’s golden boy (let alone mine) and is very much a “can do no wrong” writer; he’s had a number of really noteworthy hits at Marvel in terms of revitalizing and re-tooling characters, and given the amount of heart he puts into his work I’d love to see him do up a book that doesn’t have a team-as-family dynamic but a family-as-family dynamic. And Nick Bradshaw is just one of the most imaginative and spectacular artists who can really bring wild sci-fi concepts to life in big, Art Adams-y ways, that he’s perfect for the big sci-fi show that they’d ostensibly make of the book.
So, after a lot of soul searching, that’s my answer: Jason Aaron and Nick Bradshaw.
David That’s a great answer, and one that’s very hard to argue with. My choice is different though, unsurprisingly. I’m going to go with the Flash Gordon team of Jeff Parker, Doc Shaner and Jordie Bellaire. We know they can handle an old school sensibility with modern verve as they did in Gordon, and I think they’d be the perfect team to put the fun back in the FF. Because to me, why shouldn’t the Fantastic Four be fun? They’re adventurers! They’re discovering the unknown! Sure, they fight Doctor Doom sometimes and occasionally Galactus, but in-between, they’re finding all of the amazing things that exist in the Marvel Universe. Characters like Johnny and Ben would be a perfect fit for them, but I think they’d add so much heart to the often cold Reed and elevate Sue even higher than she’d been before. Plus, I’d love to see what the Yancy Street Gang and other supporting cast members would get up to in their hands.
I hope they do bring the Fantastic Four back, and if they do, I hope they embrace what makes them/made them special. I think both of the teams we suggested could do that, big time.
