David: Out of the ashes of the DC3 comes the MC2…or something like that. While Brian, Zach and Vince love their DC Comics, Matt and I have been fanboying up about Marvel Comics lately. That’s not to say they’re flawless, but there’s a lot to love, and there is certainly a lot to talk about. With that in mind, we’ll be providing you bi-weekly looks inside the world of Marvel Comics, with occasional impromptu topics popping up on occasion.
For our inaugural topic, I wanted to talk about one of the biggest advantages Marvel has over DC in terms of their primarily publishing efforts: the second tier. While DC has a top heavy line-up bolstered by the Justice League and its members, Marvel has a burgeoning list of “non-essential” reads (meaning not integral to the mighty beast that is continuity) if you will.
So Matt, would you agree that this tier of books is something Marvel is doing well in particular right now?
Matt: YES! In fact, I bet you and I are going to get complaints that we are far too positive about what Marvel is doing because of how well they’re doing just this.
Because, look: if DC has one fault (and, I’ll be petty — it’s not just one), it’s that they’ve put far too concerted an effort on making sure everything lines up, both to an arbitrary notion of continuity and their company image. Apparently someone got confused and decided that this “matters,” and while in small doses it helps with the appreciation of large scale storytelling, for the most part it’s non-essential elements to the overall company-owned comic experience.
Marvel, on the other hand, seems to understand that people who pick up their books are buying it for the individualized content. Yes, books tie together — the event books and their tie-ins, all the X-Books have always gone hand in hand to an extent — but I don’t have to read them all to “get” what’s going on. And, even better, I don’t have to read most anything to “get” what’s going on, because so many books that Marvel is publishing are just about the story contained within.
I think Iron Man (the character) is a good example. Kieron Gillen’s ongoing story has little do with what Iron Man is doing in the Avengers or New Avengers which has little do with what Iron Man is doing in the Guardians of the Galaxy, but his role in all three titles don’t feel obtrusive. Superior Spider-Man, too; the Doc Ock stuff is huge, but you can enjoy Spider-Man in pretty much any title right now without too much trouble, right?
They work on their individualized scale. And when you get more far removed from that — Nova, Deadpool, even Captain America and Wolverine. Cap just spent a decade in an alternate reality, but it only comes up in one other title. Wolverine has a major arc going on in his solo book, but you’d never know it reading his appearances in other comics. I love that.
David: Even on top of that, you have books like Savage Wolverine where Marvel is effectively unleashing creators to tell stories they want with the character. Right now? Jock is writing and drawing a story of Wolverine in the future, and even if the first issue wasn’t exactly the best opener ever, it is Marvel doing something different with the story by trusting a creator who has long been one of the industry’s best, and it’s so hard not to respect the hell out of that.
But let’s stay focused on those smaller books, even if I do totally agree with your sentiment that even much of their bigger books standalone on their own incredibly well.
Give me a quick run down: what are your top three second tier Marvel books right now, why are they your favorites, and what makes them stand out especially as Big Two books?
Continued belowMatthew: Well, I think Hawkeye is the obvious answer. It’s easily the least-Marvel Marvel book, particularly because it stars a main character from their film doing nothing like what the character did in said film. More to the point, each issue is becoming an experimentation in the art form; I know David Aja won’t be handling the art duties on this book alone anymore as Annie Wu steps in, but lets be real — for as much crap as people like to give Big Two comics, David Aja is doing more to push and test the medium in that book alone than at least half the indie comics people read today, let alone those that are creator-owned superhero books. And, yeah, Fraction is a big part of that, but seriously — this past weeks’ issue that was just 9 panel grid pages where just about every page is a different scene? Damn. It’s a “Watchmen” move, but they made it really work.
If “Captain Marvel” wasn’t going on a brief hiatus and hadn’t tied into “Infinity” for two-issues, that would’ve definitely made the list, but I think that breaks the rules as we’ve laid them out, in terms of books that aren’t involved with major Marvel occurrences. But when Season Two arrives, it’ll reclaim its place.
In its stead, “Nova” would probably be my second pick. I’m actually just as shocked as most people are about how amazing that book was because, with no offense intended, Loeb’s previous recent track record was miserable. But man, he and McGuinness really brought the book to life, and Zeb Wells and Paco Medina picked up that baton wonderfully. The new Nova is really endearing, I find, and I like that Marvel is taking a legitimate chance with a legacy character in the lead role, which is something that you don’t see often. Most times when you have a sidekick or whomever become the lead (see: Bucky as Captain America), you know it’ll get reversed soon enough and it is tough to get too attached. But with Sam, I don’t think there is any danger of Richard usurping him from the role, and that makes watching his growth as a legitimate, actual NEW hero quite enticing. AND I can’t wait to see what Gerry Duggan does on the book, because Duggan’s a big up and comer at Marvel. I like the way he thinks.
How about you? How much do we overlap?
David: Well, I would put both “Hawkeye” and “Young Avengers” on my list – and I do love me some “Nova”, a book which finds multiple writers brilliantly bringing a new character to life that I genuinely care about – but I am going to go a different direction and talk about three different books. Officially though, heat check wise, my three would be Young Avengers, Hawkeye and Deadpool in that order.
That’s actually not fair. It’s their own thing, and what it is happens to be a Deadpool story that is finally deserving of the infinite fandom the character gets, and it ACTUALLY makes The White Man two-parter something more than a hilariously random story.
I also wanted to talk about Avengers Arena, a book we’ve raved about plenty. It’s coming to an end soon, but Dennis Hopeless has told a finite story with both new characters and old that brought a lot of controversy, but here’s a bold statement: this story stands amongst the best stories ever for all of the characters. When it’s all said and done, this will be a brilliant one volume book that I would be glad to share with anyone, and with art from Kev Walker, Karl Moline and more. I’d say more, but it’s starting to seem like we’re getting paid to hype this book, but it’s damn good.
Lastly, let’s talk FF. Sure, it’s “connected” to Fantastic Four, but I honestly have not read any of that book and I LOVE FF. It’s a book that is just so full of heart and childlike glee. It’s one of the most fun books in comics, and I love the way Matt Fraction and Mike Allred handle the kids. From Bentley 23 becoming Werner Herzog to the Moloids falling in love with She-Hulk (the Jennnnnnn!) to everything Adolf Impossible, this is just an exceptional character study that is all about the characters.
Which brings me to my next point: I think the main thing that these second tier books do to separate themselves from the main thread Marvel books is, instead of being all about the events and the majesty and all of that, these books really, truly are about the characters. Would you agree with that?
Matt: Yeah, I can agree with that.
You know, it’s funny: I think… maaaybe five years ago, maybe less, the most common argument I heard in the neverending fan pissing contest between Marvel and DC is, “Well, DC has the better characters, so nyah.” And for a while there, I suppose that was true — DC did have a lot of excellent characters that were juggled around in surprisingly well-done ways, and that’s how you got hit little books like “Power Girl” or whatever.
But when the New 52 happened, that was completely thrown out the window in favor of (insert humorous derogatory remark that has been said a thousand times on the internet already here), and it has in a weird way given Marvel a chance to shine in that category.
See, for my money, Marvel has always had the better characters. I like them all so much more. I guess DC’s boast was that they found more dramatic ways to ground their characters in a real world, but I like the fantastic, the amazing, the uncanny — I like how out of this world Marvel characters are and can be. That’s what I find entertaining about superhero comics, and as a reader who is being drawn farther and farther away from the superhero world every day/month/year, I keep coming back to Marvel because their line-up is just so out of this world that the only place I can find stories like that is at Marvel.
And now — now, because of what happened at the New 52, it’s clear that Marvel’s editorial trolled the forums and the social medias to see what DC fans think is missing, and they’ve upped their game TEN-fold. Not for nothing, but the talent they’re getting on these books and the assumed leeway that they’re giving them to really tell sharp character-based stories is very visible in the type of books Marvel puts out and attempts to make work, and I think it is paying off.
So, yeah, definitely. There was a weird little bit in this past five years there where Marvel fell off the wagon and forgot what works, but the current crop of titles is definitely back to that idea that characters matter more than story (outside of maybe a small handful).
How much do you think this wave of success with the lower tier books has to do with Marvel letting creators do what they do well? I mean, I’m sure Matt Fraction and Dave Aja could do an interesting Avengers book or something, but letting them work on Hawkeye? Just fits so well.
Matt: I think that if there is one thing Marvel has shown — despite what some avid and misinformed nay sayers may say — it’s that they trust their creators probably 9 times out of 10. Sure, there are still instances of editorial mandates around (hence all the “Infinity” tie-ins) and I’m sure every now and then there are clashes of creativity, but if you look around at Marvel’s books they all reflect the creators working on them — even the ones that seem like they have a forced tie-in.
Because, well, look at “Thunderbolts.” That certainly fits into our discussion parameters, right? And it’s in an “Infinity” tie-in right now. But just like when Jeff Parker was helming the T-Bolt ship, Soule and Palo are making it work within the context of their title. Yeah, the “Infinity” aspect is pretty unnecessary, but it’s ultimately just a background element that is working towards the larger team/character story Soule started spinning when he took over for Way.
And, really, there are plenty of “Hawkeyes” in the Marvel U, “Superior Foes” definitely being one of them. But look around at Marvel’s Solicitations for any given month and, really, outside of that select few titles you’ll see a line of books that are very much just doing what they want, even if they’re part of a line of books or is something that is ostensibly connected directly to one book or another.. “X-Men Legacy,” anyone?
David: I’ll say I haven’t been reading it past the first issue, but I did not enjoy that issue at all. I’ve heard it has gotten better, but I will just continue to take people’s word for it. The covers though…oh boy.
Last thing before we wrap this brutal lovefest of Marvel: is it just me or were their announcements at NYCC more of the same in terms of encouraging this second tier?
Matt: Yeah, I could buy that in a sense. Probably not the way you intended.
I mean, their announcements were all of characters that are relatively known names. Punisher has had three films, Elektra, Black Widow and Ghost Rider all are in two movies, Silver Surfer and Iron Patriot in one, and Loki is Loki — notoriety is debatable for sure (outside of Loki and Punisher), but they’re all characters that can be considered bigger names than most.
But all things considered, these aren’t characters that have held titles on their own for a while, right? Marvel keeps trying with Rhodey and the books get cancelled, same with Punisher (though he seems to stand on his own a lot more), but it’s clear with the teams announced that Marvel wants to at least take chances — it was’t just “LOOK AT ALL THE NEW BOOKS FROM OUR ARCHITECTS” or whatever, it’s “Hey, here’s some up-and-comers and lesser-known names in Big Two comics, lets see what they do. I like that.
Plus, then you’ve got things like New Warriors and All-New X-Factor, and those are both for Marvel niche audiences.
David: And it’s not only that though, you have characters that don’t normally carry their own books with creators doing their own thing it seems. Dan Slott and Mike Allred on Silver Surfer? Felipe Smith and Tradd Moore, two people who near as I can tell have never done interiors on a Big Two book, on Ghost Rider? Ales Kot all over the place? Feels like them taking chances, which is great and speaks to the strength of the upper tier at Marvel that they can do things like this.
Anything else you’d like to add on the subject before we close our first edition of MC2?
Matt: Just that it sure is a swell time to be a fan of Marvel Comics, yes sir.
*leans back in porch rocking chair*
*looks over the fence at dark, stormy clouds above Gotham as the sounds of screaming echo through the mid-afternoon air*
Continued below*takes sip of iced tea*
*closes eyes and enjoys breeze blowing gently over mostly-shaved head and beard*
Yes sir.
