David: Cataclysm is in full swing Matt, and you’ve made some pretty big declarations that you think this could be all she wrote for the Ultimate universe. Some would say that’s a good thing, that this once fresh idea has now suffered from the same flaws 616 proper has, and some would lament the demise of what once was an incredible arena of unique ideas, and one that still has some shining moments.
But we don’t know whether this is all going to end. Marvel has a clear affinity for it all, and there’s the recent mysterious “Survive!” solicit by Bendis and Quinones that features at least Miles Morales. The question we can answer as two readers who have different experiences with the Ultimate Universe is this: do you think, in 2013, nearly 2014, that the Ultimate universe has a place in comics today? Now more than a decade into it, do you feel like there is a point to this universe existing anymore, and do you think it should stick around or go away?
Matthew: For me, I’d say the Ultimate Universe has run its course. Not because there is nothing to do with it anymore, because I don’t think that’s the case; the Ultimate Universe is just as capable of grand ideas as any shared comic universe, I suppose. No, I just think that that Marvel as an entity is done investing and/or caring about the Ultimate Universe, and it is time to just put it out of its mystery.
And my primary reason for saying so is because of this quote from 2005:
Joe Quesada was asked if the Ultimate Universe and the Main Marvel Universe would ever cross over and he replied no. Quesada said he’d rather close down one universe than have them cross over because it meant they were officially out of ideas.
And here we are with Spider-Men and Cataclysm.
How do you feel?
David: That is pretty hilarious, as that effectively means that they’re out of ideas now. Nice call back!
Either way, my take is this: I read one Ultimate comic. It’s Ultimate Spider-Man, which, near as I can tell, is the most consistent comic in the history of comics. It is always good. It also doesn’t need anything else to exist. It could just exist in its own little world. It doesn’t need the Ultimates, it doesn’t need Ultimate X-Men, it doesn’t need Ultimate Rom, it doesn’t even need the same main character forever. It just needs to exist. With that in mind, I think the Ultimate universe can and should go away, but let Ultimate Spider-Man continue to exist on its own two legs free of awful things like continuity and crossovers and what not.
Once upon a time, the Ultimate Universe did have a purpose, and it was a great idea. The problem is, it has lived long enough to become what it was once a remedy to. It is now a comic universe with all of the same problems that 616 once had, so its original mission statement no longer fits.
So I think it should go away, but Ultimate Spider-Man should stay. That’s a book that has been endlessly good, and never in a forced way. Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men? They can go bye bye.
Matthew: I think generally speaking the Ultimate Universe has essentially become “Ultimate Spider-Man and some other books” for many people. I have a strange personal fascination with the Ultimate U just because Bendis/Bagley’s Ultimate Spider-Man brought me back to comics in high school and I branched out from there, but even as someone who has yet to stop keeping up with the Universe, I look at these books month in and month out and just groan at how dull they’ve become.
Because, really, they should be a lot better than they are. Bendis has been on Spider-Man forever so of course there is a level of consistency there, but X-Men? Brian Wood threw away all of Nick Spencer’s ideas and branched out into this weird grass roots campaign that then finished off some loose threads of Hickman’s story, and Humphries took all of Hickman’s sci-fi political thriller ideas and just turned it into a clustercuss — and I feel like, as writers whose works I’ve enjoyed in the past, both Humphries and Wood should’ve been able to do a lot better.
Continued belowBut they can’t. Because, after years of new ideas and re-telling old ones in new ways, the Ultimate Universe has officially and quite literally been pushed to its breaking point.
David: So we’re in agreement that if Galactus eats something, it should be all of the Ultimates and the X-Men, but leave Miles alone?
Also, how hilarious will it be if Cataclysm ends in an Onslaught/Heroes Reborn moment where the universe is restarted and everyone is living in Franklin Richards’ blue bouncy ball?
Matthew: Oh god. You know, I have stuck with the Ultimate Universe through a lot, but I am not going through Heroes Reborn again. It put me off comics once, it will put me off comics again.
Let me ask you: where do you think the Ultimate Universe went wrong?
For me, I think that the death sentence for the comics was honestly Marvel’s investment in film. You look at all the early stuff, that first volume of the Ultimates and its influence on The Avengers, and you can see that this idea of restarting in the modern age was a smart idea. But with the films having such a tremendous reception, Marvel has taken the bits that inspired them and forced them into the 616, essentially negating the purpose of having a secondary universe. Marvel as a company is making such a concentrated effort in their main 616 books, in the relaunches and the Nows and the Point Ones and the Jumping On Points, that there is just no reason to have a secondary universe at all — it’s purpose is negated.
As such, so is the energy and the enthusiasm for it. Now the Ultimate Universe is just, like, a HUGE warning sign of what The New 52 is going to be in a couple more years.
David: I think where it went wrong was their concept was always finite. What was the point of the Ultimate Universe? To make the Marvel characters and concepts easy to jump into for both new and old readers. They did that, but the problem was, they were always doomed to run into the same issues that ailed the 616 universe. It was only a matter of time until the weight of continuity and history bogged their stories down too, but without the added weight of decades of history to keep people invested. Combine that with a clear preference for 616 in terms of creative choices, and you had a recipe that was destined to eventually lose its purpose.
That said, there’s no reason why these books couldn’t just have a creative team switch and become good again. I’m not saying that isn’t possible. I just don’t think there is enough interest to keep non Spider-Man stories going, and there certainly isn’t enough investment by readers.
Matthew: I don’t know, man. I think the Ultimate Universe is sort of irredeemable at this point.
I mean, lets look at it from an entirely peripheral standpoint. It was chugging alongside big name creators, but they all left and an event was created — Ultimatum — that was designed as a second reset. They had already reached a point where no one knew what to do with the books anymore, so they flipped a switch and started again.
That do-over didn’t even last, though, because the new books were bogged down with massive delays. They slogged through and once again put it all against an event, with the Death of Spider-Man. This allowed all of their books to come to a close, even the insanely delayed Ultimate X that kept the X-Men franchise from going anywhere, and they relaunched again.
Upon relaunching, the teams that were supposed to redefine the universe — hot, new, up and coming talent — had all left. Creative teams were replaced, pushed along a track, and now we’re at Cataclysm.
We can both agree that Spider-Man is the only thing that is consistent about the Ultimate Universe, and I think everyone agrees Miles is a great character. Besides him, there is literally no point to keep this universe going, and with the Ultimate Universe already having established they can cross into the 616, just throw Miles into the 616 and we’re good to go. Why even bother trying again?
Continued belowDavid: Well, I disagree on a couple levels here.
I agree with you, and didn’t say otherwise, that it is irredeemable as a potential success at what they were trying to do. I’m just saying that Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men could be good again in theory. Maybe not useful in the specific mission they were trying to accomplish, but if they threw a ton of money at Original Writer and Frank Quitely and said, “do Ultimates”, it could still be awesome.
And I think the worst thing they could do is “just throw Miles in the 616”. I think they should just let Miles exist in his own sandbox. Why force him into events or anything? Let Bendis just tell awesome Spider-Man stories for forever if he wants. It doesn’t need Cataclysms or Ultimatums, it just needs to do its thing. Why put that book into the 616 and eventually homogenize it? I think that would take away from what makes the book special.
Matthew: Well, what would you potentially like to see in a new (ie another) Ultimate Universe? If it couldn’t be just Spider-Man, if it had to be more, what would you want to see Marvel do with it to make it interesting again? Creators, plots, ideas — anything.
Because from where I’m standing, I really think Marvel should just let it go quietly into that good night and be done with it. If Miles has to go to his own solo book in an alt-reality, sure, I’ll buy it, but I don’t know if the word Ultimate should be seen on a Marvel comic anymore at all.
David: I don’t think there needs to be an Ultimate Universe. I mean, Rachel Rising exists in its own world, one not influenced by Strangers in Paradise or Echo. Why can’t Miles just do his own thing and not be in a “universe”? It would just be a standalone comic. I’m not sure what difference it makes what universe it exists in. It’s a good standalone comic and has been for a long time. As for it being an “Ultimate” comic, I feel like that just exists as a signifier to what it is rather than its belonging in another universe.
The funny thing we’re talking about is this very discussion we’re having here is exactly what Marvel was trying to get away from. They wanted to create a comic line that were just comic stories that didn’t need explanation. Somewhere you could go for good comics. Now we’re talking about the universe it needs to belong to or whatever, and it just shows about how much this venture has run off the rails.
Matthew: That’s a bit of an apples/oranges thing there, because — well, I mean, Rachel Rising and Echo and Strangers in Paradise were never meant to be part of a shared universe/experience. Marvel superhero comics are. But, I do get what you’re saying, and it’s not like Marvel hasn’t just published books that operate by themselves, such as your beloved Fury MAX.
And, yeah, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head as to why this whole experiment is just over. It’s been a fun decade plus, but just like Heroes Reborn, 2099 and every other “here’s our superheroes in new environments where we can reinvent them” under the sun, it’s time to stop pretending that this sort of thing needs to continue beyond just isolated titles.
Granted, I think that will create a problem down the line — I think Marvel creates for themselves a need to tie it all together, even when they pretend otherwise. I think continuity is very important to them, and no matter what they say in weekly CBR columns I think it always will be an important idea for them to have strings that tie it all together, but it would be nice to see how long an Ultimate Spider-Man solo series could exist of its own accord.
David: I say as long as Bendis wants to write it, keep that book going. The Ultimate U may be disposable, but Miles Morales is my boy!
