Matthew: And so, last week saw the end of Marvel’s “Infinity” event with a super-sized final issue and an epilogue found in another comic completely. It’s been a big, grand event, yet it still went by oh-so-fast.
But I’m getting ahead of myself. Having read the finale now, David, what are your thoughts on Marvel’s latest blockbuster event effort? Slam dunk, good enough or another exercise in futility?
David: Somewhere between the second and third options. I have a lot of issues with “Infinity” as an event, which we’ll get to, but this week’s final issue was kind of…I don’t know. Unimpressive? Pretty ordinary (imagine me saying that like Andrew Scott as Jim Moriarty to Sherlock on the rooftop at the end of The Reichenbach Fall)? Cold? The thing that got me the most about this event was that all of the events in it should have been impressive based off concept but in terms of execution they sort of felt flat. I have reasons for that, but all in all, “Infinity” to me was a beautifully rendered event by Jerome Opena, Jim Cheung (in particular) and Dustin Weaver (who was a bit uneven in the last issue), and Hickman had some impressive ideas in it, but it ultimately was lacking for a number of reasons.
Tell me I’m crazy. What’s wrong with me and why am I wrong?
Matthew: I can’t tell you your crazy! Because you’re not wrong — I liked it enough for what it is, but nothing about it particularly stood out. And while Jim Cheung coming back for the final issue was great and I love a good throwdown with some fun one-liners, it never felt to me like “Infinity” coalesced properly; the story of the Avengers vs. The Builders and the Avengers vs. Thanos were so disjointed that the last bit was ultimately so anti-climactic for me. So unless you’re, like, wicked into fun one-liners, I don’t think there’s enough here by series end.
But the biggest issue I have with “Infinity” is that at the end of the day it didn’t feel like much of an event. Maybe it’s just general apathy towards events or maybe I’m spoiled with Big Events Changing Big Things All The Time Always, but this felt just like an extended version of a Hickman story anyway, you know? It’s on par with every other big concept idea Hickman has thrown out there into either Avengers book, it just ties them together a little bit (emphasis on “a little”); for all intents and purposes this could’ve just been a crossover, and that might’ve served it better.
It never felt big and powerful in the same way that, say, the end of his Fantastic Four run did. And since we know Hickman knows how to kick doors down with event-type storylines, the lack of pay-off in the actual event was kind of a bummer. What are your issues with the event?
David: Well, you covered one of my main issues – the two main stories ultimately had nothing to do with each other, really – and that ties into my biggest one: the delivery of the book. From what I understand (because I didn’t read all of Avengers/New Avengers tie-ins), basically those stories expanded on the events we had in “Infinity”. The main book basically just told an abbreviated version of what happened in those books. Half of what “Infinity” was basically was an “Avengers” arc and the other half was more or less a “New Avengers” arc. Then why not just make this two arcs that happened to have an intro of “Infinity Prologue” and a finale that was “Infinity Finale”?
I’m not trying to be dumb and question the nature of event comics, but to me, it would have made this whole thing work better. Instead, the event comic devalued the arcs in the two books and vice versa.
These stories did not feed into each other whatsoever. They were accomplishing two completely different things and just happened to be sandwiched into the same book. It was a big reason why I just couldn’t get into the book at times. It was perpetually frustrating.
On top of that, so much of it relied on deus ex machinas like Starbrand all of a sudden destroying everything when he feels like it or Thane “living death” handing his pops.
Continued belowThe final major flaw was the tone throughout: I never felt any immediacy. I felt like I was reading a really well done documentary about something that happened in Marvel’s universe, not an event. Tonally, it was terribly cold, and it took huge moments like Black Bolt yelling “NOOOO!!!” to get me amped. That is not how event comics should feel in my book, Matt.
What are your thoughts on all that? Do you have other issues?
Matthew: I agree with you wholeheartedly about this devaluing the nature of events. I would also similarly pose that events just don’t *mean* anything anymore; there’s no real point to them other than to get money and entertain on a very base level. That sounds jaded, I realize, but I think a comic book event is now the equivalent of a summer blockbuster starring Tom Cruise — you’re not going for intellectually stimulating entertainment, you just grab a bucket of popcorn and hope there are some cool explosions.
Infinity was just an extension of Hickman’s take on the Avengers, right? Taking it to the same plateau that the Marvel film’s did, in which smaller threads evolved into a blockbuster film. That’s what I assume the intention was, anyway; first big event after Thanos appears in a feature film and now he’s the bad guy in an event? “Sure, OK,” says Hickman, “But I still have all this other stuff going on–” “Jon, I’mma let you finish, but Thanos is the best villain of all time,” says editorial. So Hickman takes everything he was working on in the Avengers book anyway and figured out a way to throw Thanos in the mix, and the result is the same as Fear Itself — an event designed for people who don’t read comics but see the movies.
No way to not sound fanboy about this, but events used to be for you or me, and now they’re just done to match whatever is going on outside of comics as an appeal to the ever-popular mythical “new reader” looking for a place to get into comics. That we keep buying them doesn’t help, but the book isn’t meant for you or me and at the end of the day and it reads like it.
That’s the biggest thing I got out of it. I had a good enough time reading it, but I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone looking to “get” why I like comics, let alone someone looking to “get” why I still read events every year despite our massive ennui towards them.
Does that make sense at all? It may be an odd comparison, but I think the event was entertaining on that base I-like-punches level (“NOOO!!!” was excellent, and Thor lighting up Thanos in the finale) if not a more satisfying narrative when all is said and done.
David: I have no problem with an event comic, or the idea of event comics. I don’t think I really suffer from event fatigue. It’s kind of like with adaptations – I just like them when they’re done well. Lately, we just haven’t gotten well done events, and Infinity by itself isn’t necessarily a bad comic, it’s just kind of an unnecessary one to me. Especially when I ask you this, Matt:
Why was it called Infinity? It had literally nothing to do with the Infinity Gems. It felt like it would have something to do with it, but ultimately it had nothing at all to do with them. It ended up that Thanos apparently was only interested in killing his kid, rather than collecting the gems. Given the color coded nature of the covers and everything else that happened, this was either the worst red herring ever or they audibled midway through so they could make Inhumanity a thing.
Matthew: I… legitimately don’t know why it was called Infinity now that you mentioned it. I just went and Googled it, read two articles and the Wikipedia page and I do not have a legitimate answer for you. I have bullshit answers for you, in that Infinity is a word that was tied to Thanos in the past in terms of events, but given that Thanos’ role was ultimately minuscule in the overall spectrum (Earth was never in any real danger, lets be real here), yeah, there’s literally no reason to call it that.
Continued belowIt doesn’t really bug me, but it does help point out how misguided events feel nowadays. And again, I think that’s a very fanboy-ish reaction for you and I — “Oh, well, in my day events used to mean something” as we polish our monocles. But it’s true! This, Age of Ultron, Fear Itself… your mileage may vary on whether you enjoy those books or not and that’s absolutely fine, but they’re pretty effectively pointless for people already in the scene looking for a status quo shake-up.
Before we move onto my next question, I do want to ask: what was the last event that you felt mattered? The one you compare things like Infinity against?
David: Well, before I answer that, I do want to say there were a lot of elements I enjoyed of this event. The Black Bolt/Inhumans parts were often very awesome – Hickman does a mean Black Bolt, after all. As I had said previously, Jim Cheung’s parts were incredible, Opena was often very good, and Weaver was good but a step below (especially considering his spotty parts in the finale). It is rarely not cool to see things like Thor bring the thunder down on Thanos, or similar type things. I’ve been negative to this point, but it isn’t without merit.
And as far as “mattered”, I don’t like using that because it’s us displacing our opinions on things. Like, I could say Annihilation, but did that really “matter”? The one that I naturally compare Infinity against though is of course Annihilation, and that’s what I’ll go with (Marvel’s been in a slump in my book as far as events are concerned). Anyways, the funny thing about those two events getting bumped against each other is Annihilation had exactly what Infinity lacked – it felt like the odds were so stacked against everyone in that book that characters might die and the good guys might not win. Infinity, like I said, felt like a documentary about something that happened in the Marvel universe that we knew would have the good guys win. Those stakes were certainly missing from Infinity, if only in feeling because you know they wanted us to think like that.
The most hilarious thing about Infinity to me was how overpowered Thanos’ crew was. There was one point where one of his generals – Black Dwarf – is fighting Kl’rt, Gladiator, Ronan the Accuser AND ANNIHILUS (!!!), and when thought of in the context of Annihilation, the scope and scale of what everyone is dealing with just borders on the absurd. I remember seeing that and thinking that the next event better just be everyone fighting Celestials because that’s basically the next step.
Matthew: Yeah, Annihilation is a good point of reference as I think it’s generally the best event Marvel has done in the past decade, but I was also going to bring up the Thanos Imperative, which also pretty much did the same thing — it teased Thanos as a villain even though he wasn’t the main focus, but rather an outside new alien race was coming into our universe to wreak havoc and once they were defeated it was time to throw down with Thanos. Two pretty similar plots, but I think Thanos Imperative was handled a lot better; horrible for new readers, but SO MUCH PAY-OFF for fans of the Cosmic U at the time.
Point being: Cosmic Marvel was doing everything better for years. I wish Marvel would recapture that magic.
So, last point of discussion: the tie-ins. All events seem to have too many of these these days and we get bogged down a bit, but some good can sneak through the cracks. Mighty Avengers surprised a lot of people, myself included, and piggybacking off of Infinity did give it a good starting point. And as odd as it may seem to say, last week’s Wolverine and the X-Men Annual starring Kid Gladiator was better than the regular issue of Wolverine and the X-Men, which did not star Kid Gladiator!
That said, for me, Infinity had a LOT of bad tie-ins. I love the new Thunderbolts book, but this whole arc has been pretty dull. And Guardians? Man. I like Bendis, I like Francavilla, but this was not a good comic.
Continued belowWhat do you think? Without thinking about Inhumanity and what comes next, did you check out any of the Infinity tie-ins? And, if so, do you feel that this event was a good launch vehicle for some books, or just a disaster for the books you were already reading?
David: I read the first Thunderbolts tie-in, I read A LITTLE of Avengers/New Avengers, but mostly I skipped it. I’m not really reading any of the books that happened to tie in, and tying into an event has never been a great way to draw me in. The only one I wish I had read was the Wolverine and the X-Men Annual which I didn’t pick up because BOOOO $4.99!
It’s not that I am necessarily against tie-ins. If I dig an event, I’ll read tie-ins. I think it’s a great way to lead off a book, especially something as meager in terms of interest as Mighty Avengers (which I read the first issue of, liked besides the Land art, and then forgot it existed). It’s a dicey maneuver, of course, as you don’t want everyone to just leave when the event tie-ins are over, but Mighty Avengers felt like it tied in without being beholden to it, which is a good way to do it.
I don’t have any issues with tie-ins, inherently, though. I think they can be super cool. Once upon a time – and I know this is different, but whatever – I bought damn near everything DC released for One Year Later. They can draw me in, and I think if done well, they’re pretty rad. But Infinity sure did seem to have some stinkers. What are your thoughts? Do you think tie-ins are no good by rule, or, like with events, some good, some bad?
Matthew: I mean, my general rule of thumb is that if the writer of the event wrote the tie-in I’ll buy it. Stands to reason that those books will “matter” to the narrative more than others, and the sad fact of the matter is that event books are no longer contained within their respective minis (outside of things like Age of Ultron, I guess, which was the exception). But, y’know, looking at things like Fear Itself or Blackest Night… if you skip out the other books, you miss huge chunks of the story that impact their respective finales, so that’s been my understanding of how to deal.
That and I’ll just keep reading whatever it is I’d read otherwise.
The one thing that I miss about events is when they’d put out tie-in minis that actually seemed like they’d add to the story, rather than just react around it, you know? Not to harp on Cosmic Marvel as the Gold Standard (even though it is), but everything surrounding their events ultimately ended up feeling like relevant albeit disposable pieces of the whole; if you skipped the Darkhawk mini in War of Kings you didn’t miss anything major, but if you bought into it then you were given a nice pay-off further down the line. With Infinity’s tie-ins The Heist and The Hunt, there’s just no point to either — if you like the creative team, yay, if not, you’re literally just buying longbox fodder.
So I’m pretty down on tie-ins overall, just because I don’t feel like they try with them. Thunderbolts is the prime example: that was just a Thunderbolts story, and they threw in elements of Infinity because. Felt superfluous and arbitrary, brought down the book for me; I have faith in Soule and look forward to the next issue with Gabriel Walta and eventually Ghost Rider joining in, but man, that almost killed the book for me.
And this does not bode well for the infinite Inhumanity tie-ins coming up! OY!
Well, anything else you’d like to add, David? Or did we appropriately smack down this throwdown for your liking?
David: The first Inhumanity tie-in came out two weeks ago! Not sure if you saw that, but that floored me.
I don’t have anything else to add really, besides that you and I are apparently the only people on the internet who didn’t love this. I guess, to close, I didn’t really see much that you liked about the event. So to close, give me three things you think were good about the book, and the one thing that, if changed, would have dramatically changed it for the better for you?
Continued belowMatthew: Well, I love the inclusion of Jim Cheung. The first and last issues are beautiful. Not to knock Opena or Weaver, but we do not get Cheung illustrated comics too much anymore, and while this was not him at his most explorative or even dynamic (I think Avengers: Children’s Crusade was much bigger in scope for him), I think those issues looked wonderful.
I liked Thanos’ posse and all the new villains. I know they’re never going to get used again because that is the nature of the beast, but I think they were a real credible threat and all the heroes that encountered them legitimately didn’t know what to do at first. Plus they had awesome names like THE EBONY MAW, which is pretty fantastic.
And, I think there were some really awesome moments sprinkled in there. If you take out the mess of the plot and, like I said, just sort of look at it like a summer blockbuster film starring Tom Cruise or Bruce Willis or whoever, where you’re not going because Live Free Or Die Hard looks actually good but just because Willis will say something awesome, then Thanos goading Thor to shock him again is just a damn cool moment and really entertaining to read.
As for change, the ending. For the amount of time spent focusing on the builders, I do not feel like the Thanos story had any overall impact. If they changed the ending to make those two connect a bit more other than “Oh, the heroes are gone? OK, let me go stomp up Earth in search of the one kid I have left because I don’t count Gamo– OH SHIT they’re here!”, if they’d worked in the word Infinity in a meaningful way, if there was just some kind of REAL resolution, I would’ve been much happier.
How about you? You were more open about your likes and dislikes, but reiterate in bullet points.
David: Well, my big three likes were pretty simple.
The art: Jim Cheung was certainly the highlight for all of the reasons you said, but Jerome Opena and Dustin Weaver as the other guys on the event is pretty legit. Of course, this opens up the question of why didn’t they just have one artist work on the book (event comics are always better with one artist), but this is me being positive!
The build-up on the Earth story: loved everything about Black Bolt in this event, and I thought when things were on Earth it was just far more focused and interesting. I always felt that the Builders and all them were more of a threat in name only. I never actually found them to be threatening, but Thanos and the Cull Obsidian? Hell yes. I was super into the Earth stuff…until the end.
The design: while I obviously have issues with the way Hickman delivered this story, incorporating his more design-y elements into the story gave the book an even more cinematic feel and made the book feel all the more important. I dig the charts and the title splashes and all that.
As for my biggest dislike, I have an array to choose from of course. Something petty like using Hawkeye and The Falcon in space battle? Nah. The fact that the first like…15, 20 pages were from a Free Comic Book Day and then repurposed to make the first issue $4.99? That’s not it. Really, this book would have worked INFINITELY better (see what I did there?) if it was Infinity Prologue – an Avengers arc + a New Avengers arc – meeting up at the end for Infinity Finale. Reduces the amount of issues, keeps the stories separated like they really, truly were, and just works way better. Bam. I fixed the event.
But that’s not how it works Matt. We’re left here pining for the events of yesteryear, as per usual. Wah wah wah.
