Matthew: Hello, and welcome to this week’s MC2! David and I have been having a lot of fun focusing our energy on particular aspects of the Marvel Universe, but one line that we haven’t talked about at all is the Marvel Knights line. With “Spider-Man” wrapping up last week, we figured it was a good time to take a look at the revitalized/reborn Marvel Knights line and express our thoughts on whether it was successful or not.
So, before we begin, David: what did you originally think about the announcement? Were you excited? Ambivalent? Were there any particular books you were looking forward to?
So even without much excitement about the books generally, I loved the idea, and I loved that they were trying to do something a bit different.
Conceptually, this is fantastic. What did you think about it?
Matthew: Well, I think I was in the same boat. Brahm Revel doing an X-Men mini to me sounded like the bomb dot com, something I could not wait to read! What an exciting prospect as a fellow fan of “Guerillas” thanks to you.
But I’ve always liked the Marvel Knights line. I thought it was a fun way to explore characters, and there have been some really interesting and out there minis in the line that have sort of changed or deeply affected my perspective of the characters. I think the “Silver Surfer: Requiem” is probably the prime example, but you’ve got Kaare Andrews’ final Spider-Man story and that Namor book by Ribic… I mean, there’s a lot of cool stuff in the line from days of old. To bring it back and give it an indie-focused flair, I think it’s a really cool idea and it was something I was very much looking forward to checking out.
So, sweet! We were both pumped! But here comes the real question:
Now that “Spider-Man” is done, “Hulk” has two issues and “X-Men” will have four as of this week… what do you think about the line now?
David: Well, like I said, I love them conceptually!
Execution wise? Ehhhh not so much. I only read the first issue of “Spider-Man” and found it to be rather incomprehensible even with utterly astounding art from Marco Rudy, I quickly realized “X-Men” was a “wait for trade” instance for me, and “Hulk” I just never even picked up because I figured if I heard enough positivity about it. I didn’t have the drive to pick these up once they arrived, if only because they felt like trade waiters for me.
This is where I’m going to drop my comment about what I think was their biggest mistake with Marvel Knights. It’s a great idea! They are interesting concepts! They are a more mature(ish), disconnected way of telling stories about the characters we love!
Why not make the Marvel Knights line a graphic novel one? Release single volume stories from interesting creators telling their takes on these characters? If they did that here, I think my tenor might be changed. Instead, I’m on the “meh” side of the fence. What about you?
Matthew: I find it funny because I’m kind of in a polar opposite place than you. I mean, I think if anything that’s what makes our discussions interesting — you like to me call me contrarian by nature, and I agree to a point.
Then there’s “Hulk.” I think Keatinge and Kowalski are telling a brilliant little Hulk story there; I legitimately like it more than I like the actual Hulk ongoing series by veteran comics scribe Mark Waid, soon to be joined by Mark Bagley. It’s fun, it’s inventive, it’s reflective, it’s a touch retro and it’s very much what I would call “a Keatinge comic” (it’s set in France, for one) and “a Kowalski comic” (holy shit, that art). I can’t wait to see the next two issues.
“X-Men,” though? I mean, you hit the nail on the head on your final point. This was the ONLY one I would’ve said, “No, I definitely want single issues for this,” but I think this should’ve just been a graphic novel. In single issues, it does not work for me; it was the book I was most anticipating, and maybe that is hurting it, but I’m a bit let down. I still greatly enjoy Brahm Revel’s work here, but the book is simply not doing it for me, and I wonder if perhaps it would be better simply read as a single book when it’s done.
I remain wildly enthusiastic about the line, though. I just find it interesting that my expectations are essentially inverted — the book I was the most excited for is the book I least enjoy, which is a strange occurrence to me. I’m not sure what happened.
So, yeah, I’ve got loads of thoughts on the quality of these books. But I guess what I’m curious about, for you, is what have you thought of the graphic novels Marvel has released? Season Ones, that Warren Ellis/Mike McKone thing, etc. I mean, have those worked for you? Is that why you think Marvel Knights would too?
David: Going back to Spider-Man, I did say only the first issue was incomprehensible, and I DEFINITELY would call it that. But from what I understand the rest of the series smoothed out.
What have I thought of Marvel’s other GN’s? Nothing. Haven’t bought a single one of them, so that’s not why. I just think if you’re going to tell stories about these characters with more indie sensibilities to a degree, then maybe changing the format slightly would work better. For example, I feel like the Oni collections of Guerillas work better than the single issues that came out from Image (although they both were great). Some storytellers work better in certain formats, and I think this is a situation where the adult/mature stories (or whatever you want to call Marvel Knights) might fit better in a different format.
However, only at a certain cost do I think GN’s are better idea. $14.99? Yeah, sure. $24.99, like Endless Wartime was? Hell no. Marvel needs to get their pricing structure on collections straight.
Matthew: Well, see, that’s interesting to me — because you think something would work better in a different format, but it’s a format you’ve not even tried to see if it’s any decent.
And if I had to venture a guess as to why, it’d be because I think Marvel doesn’t know how to make graphic novels — they know how to make comic series, and minis and ongoings. Maybe we can chalk this up to editing, but the structure of their graphic novels are just kind of dull, and the Season One endeavor had two nice entires (X-Men and Doctor Strange) and then a whole lot of of shelf filler. (I assume. I stopped even looking at them in stores after a while.)
So for me, I think the way that Marvel makes actual single-issue distributed comics works a lot more than what they’ve produced with their graphic novels, and unless something in that creative process changes I put my money towards single issue distributed mature readers books. (But, then again, I’m also a fan of at least two of the books in question here.)
Continued belowDavid: Not sure if you know this, but I’ve read many, many more graphic novels than just the ones Marvel does. I’m VERY familiar with the format.
And my implication here isn’t that Marvel is good at making graphic novels. I am just saying that the stories likely would have worked better in collected form from the start. Not only that, but from a sales standpoint, all three haven’t exactly lit the world on fire – MK Hulk #1 finished nearly 50 spots below the 17th issue of Indestructible Hulk in December’s charts – so maybe this would have aided them in finding an audience, because they’re certainly not finding it in single-issue form.
We’re not here to discuss Marvel’s ability to craft graphic novels though, and I’m not sure how we went that direction.
Let’s close by asking this: do you think this ends up being a one-time experiment, or do you think we’ll see more of the Marvel Knights line sooner rather than later?
Matthew: Haha, that’s fair. Although I guess I should clear-up: I know you’ve read graphic novels. We all have, and we know how they can work when done well. All I was just saying is, I don’t think Marvel does — so doing more of them, to me, sounds like a bad idea; as opposed to minis like the Marvel Knights stuff.
I am not sure if this will be a one-time experiment, but I’ll say that I really hope that it isn’t. I have a lot of Marvel Knights minis in my collection and I really like the different takes that get brought to these characters in this format. I think that the talent Marvel assembled for the new line was colossal, even if one of the books didn’t pay-off for me, and I would hope that trade sales of the series give a substantial boost in notoriety for the line.
Because really, if people like you are waiting for trade, then I think we’ll find in a few months a lot more positive affectations for this entire endeavor. I think eventually “Spider-Man: 99 Problems” could theoretically be pointed to as a great book for people who like Spider-Man in general but don’t necessarily read his regular ongoings, or are maybe looking for something just a little bit different. These three Marvel Knights titles, for better or for worse, show me nothing but a grand new potential here — and while sales may not be great, I could come up with a litany of talented indie creators who I’d love to see given the same ostensible amount of freedom afforded Kindt, Rudy, Keatinge, Kowalski and Brahm here.
I mean, Marvel is scooping up indie talent left and right for their ongoings, but I think short bursts of continuity-free superhero stories is an impossibly smart thing to have, and certainly something that should be explored more. How about you? What would you want to see from the line that would make it more worthwhile to you, as opposed to a trade-waiting thing?
David: Well, I bought the first issues of two of the three comics, so I wasn’t a pure trade waiter. I was onboard from the start, but the weak crop of first issues converted me to wait until they were collected. I guess for me, if you’re going to do it in single issue format, have better first issues. You have to have a hook, and I didn’t think either of the issues had one (Spider-Man had the opposite of a hook, in that it made me want to put it in a long box never to be seen again). So like I said, I didn’t come in planning to wait for trade, I kind of felt pushed into it.
Also, here’s a major foundational issue with the line too, if they continue to go this route: you called this group, effectively, a colossally talented group. They are undeniably that. The problem with it is, most average readers that don’t run comic sites probably aren’t familiar with some of those names. I think that’s a big reason as to why orders were more on the fair to middling side than top seller one, and I think for that reason, this is probably the end.
One way or another, comics are sales driven at least to a degree, and I think because these sales have been on the weaker side, it’s a one-and-done endeavor.
Which is a shame because I think there is a lot of potential here. While I think we were lacking in good, engaging stories, I do think this is the type of way Marvel should diversify their line rather than MORE AVENGERS! or MORE X-MEN! I want different. Something that allows stories to be told that are off the typical Marvel beaten path. Just maybe next time they should lead a bit stronger, if there is a next time.
