David: The MC2 is back, and this time we’re looking at the Marvel Films side of the world, and Matt, things are looking pretty damn healthy. Thor: The Dark World is a big success, Iron Man 3 was the biggest box office smash of the year and the Netflix/Marvel deal was met with resounding success. Now that we’re deep into Phase Two with Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy on the horizon, I have to ask: how are you feeling about the state of the Marvel movie universe?
Matthew: Overall I’m jazzed. I think that’s the easiest word to throw out there for this — jazzed. Pumped, even. Stoked, perhaps. I am feeling the excitement and I want to see more of the films already; the wait is the worst part.
How about you?
David: Yeah, I think that’s the thing they’ve most accomplished is the fact that everyone – not just comic fans – are really, really excited for the movies. Guardians of the Galaxy dominating the trending charts on Twitter, The Winter Soldier’s trailer being one of the buzziest of the year and every one of them making them dolla dolla bills, ya’ll. People are getting really, really excited, but I have to say, I’ve actually thought that the beginning of Phase Two was a pretty mixed bag. Iron Man 3 was ultimately forgettable, although fun, and Thor: The Dark World was something I walked out thinking “well that was neat” and haven’t really thought of since.
I know that’s something you’ll strongly disagree with me on, but while 2014 seems like a whole of fun, 2013’s slate really didn’t feel like it was all that. Are you on the same side as that, or do you disagree? Additionally, do you think releasing two movies a year – maybe more as we move along – might reduce the level of excitement of the individual movies?
Matthew: Well, I think that Thor: The Dark World was pretty wonderful all around. I left the theater wanting to see it again, and eagerly discussing the ending and the stingers and all that good jazz. It definitely left me very pumped to see more Marvel movies, let alone go home and just watch Thor again. But I might be entirely biased here because Thor was my favorite of the initial crop and Dark World just continued what I feel is the most entertaining Marvel film franchise.
Iron Man 3? Well, I think you’re right: it’s a good movie, a good enough movie. I own it, I’ve watched it again since seeing it in theaters, but it’s easily a bit of a let down. Yet, I think part of that comes from the fact that Iron Man 3 wants to close off the Iron Man trilogy, but it was taken by the audience as the first post-Avengers film, and that’s impossible expectations to live up to. Marvel has set its own bar too high to match itself anymore, and while I think you can still have a lot of fun at the movies there will definitely always be that “We live in a post-Avengers world, all films need to be like Avengers” stigma to their film franchise.
But, one thing that we might want to take into account with this as well is the TV show that you stopped watching, no? Because that is a big part of the overall endeavor.
David: Well, before we move there entirely, I did want to comment on that post-Avengers world comment. Do you feel like Marvel may create a bit of a hangover effect whenever they release an Avengers movie? I heard a lot of commentary of just that – most notably in Wesley Morris’ review of Thor: The Dark World for Grantland (and he’s about the hottest thing in film commentary today) – the movies like The Dark World and Iron Man 3 just feel underdeveloped and certainly far less exciting compared to Avengers. While I like many of them, I find it hard to disagree with that point to a certain degree.
As for Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., that is definitely a big part of their scheme and their first foothold in the TV universe. However, I think we’re starting to get to the point where you can call it pretty much a complete failure, as reviews have not been strong and its ratings have decreased 53% since launch, with only one series seeing greater decline and many TV prognosticators questioning whether or not it’s going to get renewed. Given that Disney owns the show and that it’s part of the overall brand, I imagine it will stick around, but the future is pretty bleak for this as their first TV show effort.
Continued belowMatthew: I dunno if I agree with Morris. I’ve never read anything he’s written and that puts me at a disadvantage here, but I don’t know if it’s that they feel underdeveloped so much as they just don’t feel like worthy successors. I think with the idea of Avengers out there now, you just want something that goes THAT BIG everytime, but that’s impossible without it just being that movie, you know? So, yes, they’re less exciting, but they are on different tracks.
I think, if we were to get super nerdy and make graphs and charts about the perception of the Marvel Cinematic U, It would probably change a lot of how people understand the perceptions of these films — because, while yes they are linked, you’re still ostensibly supposed to look at them as individual franchises that just happen to tie into and feed off of one big event. Y’know? Like comics!
And SHIELD certainly falls into that same argument, where everyone just looks at it wanting more of that delicious Avengers pie and coming away having eaten something far less delicious. It’s like going to a restaurant that serves the most amazing chicken pot pie in the world and coming back a couple months later with fond memories, deciding to try the shepherd’s pie and then berating yourself for not just going with the safe bet.
(I also think SHIELD has been getting a lot better, and no one has been noticing because so many people were quick to give up — no offense. It’s like Arrow; if you slug through that first season just because you’re a comic fan, you’re rewarded immensely with what comes next.)
David: Yeah, I think you’re right – and I was going to point that out – that the Iron Man films and the Thor films and the rest are the main series that feed into the “events” of the Avengers. The problem is, I wonder if that’s going to create a certain level of burn-out amongst the average Joe audience. I’ve loved a lot of the others, some almost as much as the Avengers film, but I’m curious as to whether or not it’s going to create issues for viewers who aren’t trained to accept things like that.
As for S.H.I.E.L.D., I appreciate that it’s probably gotten better, but man, if a comic was bad for 5 straight issues, I’d drop it. To me, it shouldn’t take that long for a show to get its footing, especially with the backing of Disney and Marvel and all of the wonderfully creative people onboard. I do think it suffers due to the comparisons made to the films, which is unfair because obviously the budgets are going to be hugely different. I just don’t think what I watched warranted the existence of the show, and even if it has gotten better, I have no interest in going back to find out. It’s lost me, Matt. It’s lost me!
One thing I wanted to ask about – and SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVEN’T WATCHED THOR: THE DARK WORLD – …
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Get outta here!
Anyways, the revelation that the Aether and the Tessaract are actually Infinity Gems in the first stinger on Thor: The Dark World. Is it just me or is that a really underrated in its awesomeness revelation? That’s so cool, and does a fantastic job of building the universe and in building the tie to Thanos. Out of anything from Phase Two so far, that’s the thing I love the most.
Matthew: I’ll at least note this before I answer your question — you still watch The Walking Dead, so I think if anything that shows that you are willing to put up with a bad show until it gets “good” again (from what I here; I flat out gave up). So give SHIELD a second chance when it’s all done and available on Netflix or something!
As for Dark World, yeah, that was the rumor right? After the Infinity Gauntlet was in the background of Thor for a nanosecond and the Tesseract was in gem form in Loki’s staff; I remember a lot of people guessing that that was the Mind Gem, myself included. The confirmation was nice.
Continued belowI think that’s really smart of Marvel, though, because that’s obviously build-up for what we’re going to see in, like, five years, right? That’s Avengers 3: Thanos Party Time material. And that they introduced Thanos in the background of Avengers and are now clearly going to seed him throughout the other films (Guardians in particular because of Collector, Drax and Gamora), I really like how Marvel is basically serving both of their audiences at once — the Geek Guys and Gals get to flip their shit when Benicio shows up in that ridiculous wig, and everyone else gets to delve into the mythology or just sit back and watch the plates spin.
It’s a very dangerous game, though, clearly. I mean, this could really backfire, don’t you think?
David: You sonofabitch. How dare you bring The Walking Dead into this. YOU KNOW MY REASONS.
The difference with that and SHIELD however for me is that there weren’t really any elements of SHIELD I was super into. There are parts of The Walking Dead I really like! There always have been. It’s just the writing and the usage of horrible music that I often hate. And Andrea. And Lori. I’m evidently a Walking Dead misogynist!
To respond to the backfiring part, I don’t really think so. I mean, they’re just doing more of the universe building that comic fans LOVE and in the process building up interest in their ancillary products (you know, comic books) by saying, “get more of the story in Infinity!” or something. By doing that, they simultaneously build A3: TPT, Guardians of the Galaxy and wherever else the gems will appear (like another one in Guardians, but maybe the Russians have one in The Winter Soldier?!). It’s really smart, and it shows that while sometimes the movies aren’t a hit with everyone, there’s storytelling value for the greater whole in every one of the films. Now THAT has value, I have to say.
Let’s close with a little bit about what’s next. Next year brings The Winter Soldier and Guardians. What are you more amped for, what do you think will be better, and what do you think will be the bigger box office success?
Matthew: I know that you hate yourself, and that I’ve told you to call me when you’re relapsing into excitement about Walking Dead. But you never listen!!
Talking about next year’s films are actually a perfect segue into why I thought it might backfire, though, because while I thought the Guardians short in Thor 2 was fine enough, I saw a lot of distaste for it on the ol’ interwebs, to the point that Alan Taylor said, “Uh, I didn’t do this, I swear,” and James Gunn said, “Look, this is what happens when you have two hours to put something together.” You and I love comics and movies and where they crossover, but building up to what essentially seems like Infinity Gauntlet: The Movie is CRAZY ambitious — almost more ambitious than a shared film universe!
So when I think about what I am amped for in the future, I feel it is important to note that I have to do the following two things.
1. Manage my expectations (ie lower them, because nothing will ever be The Avengers)
2. Forget that everything connects
I don’t know if you feel the same way, but if the first two Marvel Phase Two films are anything to go by, I think that’s the only way I’m going to enjoy the next two movies. And I’m saying this as someone who loved Thor 2.
But more to the point: I think Cap 2 will obliterate Guardians in quality, but I expect both to do well at the box office. I’m generally excited for both as a fan of this whole shebang, but Guardians already has a stigma to it, based on the Thor tease and now the confirmation of those gems being *those* gems. So I’d say expectations are beyond high for that — that and I think, based on the cast and characters and what little I know about the movie, it seems to be the definition of spinning plates. It seems like a daunting endeavor, to say the least.
Continued belowCap 2? The extended preview of that before Thor 2 just looks legit. Like, too legit. Too legit to even think of the possibility of quitting, David. That and Ed Brubaker tweeted somewhere something about loving the script and consulting on the movie, so, y’know, extra win. And did you know Cap 2 tickets are already on sale? I saw a huge sign for it at a theater near me and was admittedly surprised.
So, yeah, I’m putting my money on Cap 2 for all of the wins.
David: I’m going to go a slightly different route. I’m more excited for Cap 2 and I think it will also be bigger, but I have a feeling Guardians is going to be a massive hit. Even if it isn’t great, I think it’s going to be strange in a, “holy shit, you need to see Bradley Cooper as a cursing raccoon with laser blasters” sort of way. I think its buzz is already enormous, and I think it’s going to be a massive curiosity to non-fans. Not only that, but the first Captain America movie really didn’t do that well. It did well in the sense that it made more than its budget, but for a Marvel movie it was lower tier.
That said, The Winter Soldier pretty much looks like an Avengers movie. He’s got his own team of The Falcon and Black Widow, you got some Nick Fury AND Robert Redford action, and you have some serious, high quality SHIELD action. It’s going to be a hell of a thing, but I just have a feeling the weirdness of Guardians is going to really connect with people.
It’s going to be interesting, but I can say this: everyone in Hollywood is envious of Marvel, especially DC. The mere fact that we’re talking about this is a hell of a thing considering it wasn’t THAT long ago Marvel was filing for bankruptcy? Nice work Marvel.
Matthew: I do wonder if something as … ugh, can I call it esoteric? Something as esoteric as Guardians will work for people like you think it will.
Where you see “weird” as a positive, I see “weird” as a negative — at least from a general perspective. This is the first Marvel film that doesn’t feature classic characters of any kind; yes, there is the rumor about a certain franchised hero having a role (or at least a cameo) in the film, but none of the Guardians are name-brand characters — and I really want to emphasize the branding. You can sell a Captain America t-shirt to someone who has never seen the movies. You can’t sell that same guy a Star-Lord t-shirt, I don’t think.
And people I know, people who don’t really care about comics but enjoy the film universe, have no interest in Guardians. The most I hear about it is one of those, “Oh, I’m just seeing it because I have to” remarks — that mentality that, to get the full picture you need to see every film. That’s the only thing I see working in favor of the movie, and it’s my least favorite aspect of comics in general!
You and I love weird sci-fi films, but generally speaking the public does not. I’m sure you can correct me on this, but outside of a film that features a tent-pole summer movie blockbuster actor or actress, I’ve never seen a movie of this kind — something even us fans are dubbing “weird” — do too well in the mainstream. At LEAST not until the DVD/Blu-ray release. Am I completely off base?
David: Well, I do believe this is the type of thing where weird will do well. Not that it’s a perfect example, but at NYCC those Rocket Raccoon plushies had the biggest lines of anything. I think Rocket Raccoon is going to blow people’s minds, and I think it’s going to be the type of situation where the Marvel Films name and the “I have to know what the hell is happening there!” will draw people in. Plus, it seems like it will be comedic, which is a draw in itself.
Continued belowAs for “weird” movies doing well, many of them do well in the sense that they exceed expectations, but yeah, hardly ever are they enormous hits. But contextually, this is way different than a “Cabin in the Woods” or “Slither” (both of which made money, one of which was directed by James Gunn). Personally, I think Gunn is the biggest detriment to the movie in a lot of ways, as I’ve always found his films to emphasize the weird for weirdness sake, rather than for the story, and that stinger on Thor did nothing to change my mind.
All this said: we haven’t even seen a trailer yet. I think the trailer will say a lot. And I think the trailer will crush, and if they’re smart, they’ll probably tease that cameo you mentioned.
Matthew: I don’t suppose you watched that “leaked” Comic Con footage, did you? Of the stuff made exclusively for the panel — and, which was admitted to be something thrown together last minute?
I didn’t watch it myself, but I’ve seen a bevy of gifs from it around. Rocket will certainly be the breakout character of the film. I don’t know if he’s enough to save it for the general public (as opposed to fans like you or I), but that will certainly be a talking point.
Or I assume it will, anyway. Maybe the big draw will be “Hey, did you hear Vin Diesel plays a tree?” I’d go see a movie just for that.
David: I did not see that, or any images. I can say this: I think it’s going to be the biggest test of Marvel’s brand. If Guardians is a success, they can probably roll a Squirrel Girl movie into production because they are freaking bulletproof.
Matthew: At which point we as a collective comic community can officially pat ourselves on the back, because we’ve made it.
