David: Matt, I don’t even know what’s going on. Civil War is coming to the movies, it’s coming back to the comics, and you’re about to have a Civil War with the editors of Variety. My head is spinning and I don’t even think a $40 million dollar backend deal from a despondent Ike Perlmutter could help me. This might be an all over the place discussion, but let’s start with this. So it seems the third Captain America movie IS Civil War. How do you feel about that? Do you think they’re diving into that storyline too early and making a mistake in abandoning the ramifications of The Winter Soldier for now, apparently?
Matthew: That’s a good question.
I’ll say this: now that I know (or think I know, because Variety keeps updating their article and is confusing me) the third Captain America film is “Civil War,” I think it is a great move and makes a lot of sense. The thing about the second Cap film is that, really, the fallout for that film is more intensely felt in Agents of SHIELD than anything else, because the next Marvel film is Age of Ultron. If nothing else, that will inherently change the direction of whatever happens in Phase 3, of which Cap 3 is a part of. So looking at it through the lens of Winter Soldier seems folly to me, because it’ll most likely be a reaction to Ultron than anything else; we know Ultron is related to Tony, and every thing we’ve heard about the film implies Tony is at fault for Ultron — what else would the first major Marvel franchise film to follow Ultron deal with besides friction between the two the wake of that cataclysm? (I’m assuming, of course.)
Plus, “Civil War” is Marvel’s most profitable event of all time, right? Or something like that? A film adaptation is smart for them in terms of that alone.
And, in terms of ramifications of Winter Soldier, I think it’s the perfect film to do it with. As I mentioned in our article about the news, Chris Evans won’t be young and beautiful forever, and as hard as that is for us to come to grips with, he will need to pass on the mantle eventually. With Brock Rumlow clearly set up to be Crossbones by the end of Winter Soldier, now is the perfect time to do “Civil War” — which, rather famously, resulted in Cap being shot by Rumlow, only to be replaced by Bucky. BOOM! Bucky can be Captain America in Cap 4.
So, yeah, makes a LOT of sense to me. Even if there are those who aren’t a fan of the storyline — of which I know there are many — I think it’s a smart move.
David: Your explanation is…excellent. Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were exactly on point with that. That makes a whole lot of sense. If that is right, I’m all in. In fact, why the hell are you not writing this movie, Matt?
While I’m not sure Bucky will be Cap in the fourth movie, I wouldn’t be surprised. I wouldn’t be surprised by all of that. The only thing I have to wonder is whether or not there’s been enough of history built into this to make it really feel like it works. I love the original story to be honest, but a big part of the reason it works is because of the relationship they built with those characters before. Millar played off that very nicely, and it made the Superhuman Registration Act such a natural divide. I have to wonder if in the four or so hours of the two Avengers films they’ll have built enough of that to make it feel natural.
Of course, they’ve done a lot in terms of setting up Cap’s suspicion of the way the world works and that Cap and Iron Man have a sort of adversarial relationship, so it likely will work. It’s just one thing I wonder about.
All in all though, I think it’s a smart move, and I think the fact you pointed out in the news article that this now positions Cap 3 directly against Batman v Superman is an insanely genius move, and kind of a dick move in how perfect it is. It’s like they’re saying “anything you can do DC, we can do better.”
Continued belowEarlier in the day though, you and I were going to talk about the new Civil War story, and we both thought that it had something to do with all of the time shenanigans going on, and maybe they’d be bringing other events back like they were doing with Civil War and with Secret Wars. But now I have no idea. What do you think this new Civil War comic might be, especially factoring in Adi Granov’s cover being so similar to the events of the original story?
Matthew: I was going to write the movie, but Ike wasn’t up for my $40 million backen– oh, you made that joke already. Darn!!
And, just as a note (which I’m sure you will have follow-up thoughts on yourself): that Cap 3 is now, essentially, Iron Man v Captain America: Dawn of No Justice, it will be VERY interesting to see how if in any way the two films interact at the box office. There’s a lot of pre-built fan-based negativity for Batman v Superman and the reception to Man of Steel wasn’t exactly positive, but I would casually wonder outloud if people might have superhero fatigue in the month or so between the two films in a way that could hurt Cap 3’s box office? I sincerely doubt it in every way as people seem to trust Marvel and come out in droves, but there are also a lot of people out there that don’t understand that DC and Marvel aren’t all the same thing, you know? Could they just give up on superheroes if Batman and Superman together let people down? Will be interesting to see the box office returns, regardless.
Now to the comics thing.
The “Civil War #1: 2015” thing is interesting, right? I would agree with you: it seems at first like it’s related to the announcement of “Secret Wars.” This move of Marvel’s, to do a lot of build-up where “every story in every book” leads to this mid-80’s story reboot is weird in its own right, and when you tack on the addition of “Civil War” it just seems like Marvel is stuck in the past. If we have to come up with an explanation for it, my first assumption would be that it’s an alternate reality telling of “Civil War”; perhaps given that “Secret Wars” ties together so many alt universes together in a big clash, maybe Marvel is doing some kind of series showing us major storylines like “Civil War” as they played out on Earth-XXX or whatever. It could be an interesting way to flesh out Marvel’s extended multiverse.
So that’s my guess. But that said, I can’t be sure. Is it a one-shot? Is it a mini? I don’t know. Marvel has done books where they just re-tell old events, though usually they’re made and condensed for younger audiences (see: Brian Clevinger and Brian Churilla’s adaptation of “Infinity Gauntlet” in a 4-issue mini for the all-ages crowd). It would seem very silly to me to just re-do the whole thing, but at the same time, we’re about to have “Civil War” in a film; for the most part Marvel has tied their comics into the films, whether it be bringing particular characters back into books or changing costumes or anything of that sort, so having a new trade to be in shops waiting for people to come out of the theaters is a very Marvel-esque business decision.
I really wouldn’t put it past Marvel to “Civil War” to just re-do the whole event in some way. My last guess would be that it is through the eyes of a character that is retelling the event through a previously unseen perspective as to show-off some new game-changing* and/or previously unheard of aspect to it, like “Original Sin” showing that Iron Man is responsible for creating the Hulk or that the spider that bit Peter Parker bit someone else. “Civil War” is Marvel’s best-selling event comic; might as well do it again somehow!
Either way, the dream of 2006 is definitely alive at Marvel.
David: Here’s my guess, and it ties into multiple of your suggestions. I’m going crazy.
Continued belowSo there’s going to be Secret Wars at the heart of it, but as you said, there’s going to be all of the different alt universes involved with that. What if Marvel introduced each of those universes through one-shots telling their own versions of Civil War and Fear Itself and Secret Invasion and Siege? What if this was just the way they gave us insight into these universes, like you suggested? Basically…real world what ifs? I could easily see that.
What I don’t think is a retelling of Civil War in 616 proper. I think even they’d realize that would be absurd, and if they’re looking to make some money off a tie-in, oh, hello new Civil War hardcover! I’m sure that will be coming and that makes more sense. But who the hell knows.
Here’s the next hypothetical for you, Matt. Let’s say it is in fact a new Civil War story in 616. Do you think Marvel’s going too far to tie together the movies and the comics? Because I’ll be honest, I would. It’s not like we’re getting another Age of Ultron right now (yet, don’t read this Marvel!). If we get another Civil War, it would be such a blatant money grab, it’d be super frustrating to me. What about you?
Matthew: Oh man. As I was reading your response, I was expecting you to say that, like, the new “Civil War” comic would take place in a comic iteration of the MCU. I was surprised you didn’t go there! I mean, how is that image NOT a clear indication that Marvel and Sony reached their decision to share Spider-Man in their films, AM I RIGHT?
If the 2015 “Civil War” teaser is for a second Civil War and not just a reboot/retelling of some form or kind, then yes, that is definitely too far, and rather frustrating. (A reboot/retelling is in its own right, but whatever, depends on the context.) Marvel has been remarkably progressive recently, though, both in terms of the characters it introduces, the ones it gives solo titles to and its general effort to push themselves forward that back-trotting seems so counter-productive and otherwise detrimental to their publishing line. It’s why so many people are afraid of Marvel pulling a “New 52”, I think; nobody wants Marvel to look to the past for the answers, to just re-do old things instead of trying out something new, and “Civil War 2” would definitely be a major eye-roll in that regard. I mean, you and I haven’t even talked about how we feel about a new series being called “Secret Wars” again!
And in terms of the films, I mean, at that point it would just be ridiculous. It already gets awkward in comics when costumes just arbitrarily change, or you get books like “Avengers Assemble” that just feel really forced. The flip in “Guardians” recently was particularly awkward, and while I actually like the recent storyline in the book quite a bit, that they flipped the switch on Quill as a character like turning on a light was so strange to read. Then you get stuff like Marvel’s random major push for Inhumans stuff that just kind of went nowhere, despite all signs indicating that they were planning big things for their films and… I dunno, man. I know we deal with it, and I know I’ve written about how I think Marvel’s relentless efforts for synergy, but these things only work when they’re integrated in a way that we don’t notice — like, for example, Tony Stark becoming a villain in the comics (“AXIS,” “Superior Iron Man”) and now, hey, he’s a villain for the films too! Good timing! Well played!
So for the most part, Marvel is failing at curating their synergy across the board well, and another “Civil War” would seem hella forced. But, you know, those who don’t write MC2 or DC3 columns on the regular will make sarcastic remarks about how all superhero comics do is just retell the same stories over and over and over again with light tweaks, and they’re not entirely wrong, either. There’s a lot of circular motion in comics, and we often see stories that seem like revamps of older stories. How many times have we read the origin stories of certain superheroes, like Spider-Man or Iron Man or Captain America, all of which reveal “new” or “previously unseen” bits and bobs? That stuff happens a lot, though they usually try to mask it in some way.
Continued belowDavid: That’s true, and I’m fine with that. There are still interesting stories being told, but rehashing something that isn’t even a decade old isn’t my type of interesting. I really don’t think they’ll do it.
I do think that this movie will print money, and whatever the comic is, it’ll do well. We can sass Marvel as much as we want, but holy crap, people will be freaking out about this when it drops. The idea of Civil War was never anyone’s problem. It was the execution. If Marvel Studios can clean that up, it’s going to be mind blowingly awesome and it will basically be like another Avengers movie, won’t it? It’s hard to imagine it won’t.
Got anything else to add, champ? Anything you think we missed, save for discussing how they’re doing “Secret Wars” again? All I’ll add about that is they did do “Secret Wars II” like…two years after the first one, and Bendis and Gabrielle Dell’Otto did “Secret War”. It’s hardly a concept they haven’t rehashed before. Plus, it’s Hickman and Esad Ribic doing some crazy multiversal shenanigans. I’d read their own version of the Clone Saga. Secret Wars? Couldn’t be an easier sell.
Matthew: Oh, it will definitely print mad money. The folks at Marvel are Scrooge McDuck swimming in the vault at this point, and their movies and cinematic universe are an insane success story at this point.
And, you know what? Condensing “Civil War” into a movie with JUST Iron Man and Captain America is much smarter than trying to recreate that comic on film as a full-blown Avengers ordeal, because that comic features more characters than I think we could handle in a live action film at once, let alone what Marvel could afford even with their stacks of cash. Condensing it down to two core characters, boiling down that drama for two actors that already have good chemistry to explore? I’m all for it. I’m excited for a film of just RDJ and Chris Evans clashing, and I’m happy to board the hype train for it. I’m exhausted of the idea of heroes not being heroes and fighting each other in comics, and to pull back an earlier remark I’m not excited about Batman fighting Superman but… well, David, I guess at the end of the day I am comfortably a hypocrite.
As for my thoughts on “Secret Wars”, well… they are for another discussion some other day, as they are vast and varied. But we’ll get there soon, I’m sure.
David: You and I can be hypocrites together, at the front of the lines on opening night. I’ll be hyperventilating after watching the 85 trailers they released to hype the movie, you cool as a cucumber but secretly packing a bag of Werther’s Originals. The thing about something like this is it’s the type of thing I always wanted as a kid, and in a weird way, the only thing in Marvel stories today that makes me feel like a kid again are the TV and movie adaptations. I’m fine with that.
I really, truly can’t wait.
