David: This past weekend at San Diego Comic Con, there were all kinds of crazy and crazy awesome comic movie news – namely a coming Batman/Superman movie from Zack Snyder – but somehow, Marvel blew everything else away with their Avengers 2 announcement. Everyone was going to be excited no matter what, as Joss Whedon is doing a sequel to his monumentally successful first film, but the excitement ended with a question mark in regards to the sub-title: Age of Ultron.
Obviously, this is the name of the recent “event” comic from Brian Michael Bendis and friends, and to say it was received poorly is an understatement. Now, we have Avengers 2: Age of Ultron, the only title that may have been more derisively received than calling it “Avengers 2: Electric Boogaloo.” To discuss that, what it means, what our expectations are and more is fellow MCer Vince Ostrowski. So, Vince, when you first heard the announcement, what was your response? Total gut level, no logic.
Vince: My immediate gut reaction was one of disgust. I hated “Age of Ultron” as much as anyone in the comics community for how clumsy and careless I thought it was with its time travel plot and the motivations behind it. I thought it was a cool title for an Ultron story, but after that event, just seeing those 3 words strung together gave me dispepsia.
Did you feel the same way? I mean, I think we’ll discuss why the title may or may not mean anything, but do you think it was a strong choice given that we are still so close to that event’s ending?
David: Well, to me there are two audiences for this: the ones who saw the Avengers and enjoyed the hell out of it and the comic fans who would see it no matter what. For the former (and to certain degree, the latter), they could call it Avengers 2: Eat Shit and Die and it would be a midnight showing movie. So my immediate logical reaction was “I don’t really care what it’s called,” but then my comic book side was like “THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHAT IS HAPPENING WHY GOD WHY?!”
I mean, it doesn’t make any sense does it? Even if you say that the people who vocally disparaged that event – ourselves included, for the most part – are the vocal minority of the second audience, why would you name your movie after something that would effectively piss off even like 5% of your total audience? It seems shocking to me that the brilliant creative and marketing minds at Marvel would look at this and be like, “yeah, that’s the one.” Needless to say, I went through an array of emotions and thoughts Vince.
Vince: Right. The general public doesn’t give a rip what it’s called. Most people who don’t read comics will not have ever heard those 3 words consecutively in their life before. Even comic fans, at the end of the day, don’t care what it’s called as long as it has their favorite heroes, played by their favorite actors, being directed by Whedon.
Now, at the end of the day, I believe we’ll get a story that will only superficially resemble the one that Bendis wrote. Maybe it won’t even resemble it one lick. But can I play Devil’s Advocate here?
Do you think it’s odd that Marvel Studios would use the title of a readily and recently available story in both trade and individual issues without having its story resemble it in significant ways? Is that good business, or doesn’t it matter? And with the cornucopia of untouched Marvel Comics and “Avengers” history to mine from, does it strike you as odd that they would go here for the title of what is really only their second Avengers story?
David: I don’t think it’s odd. I think it’s smart. Really smart actually, as from a marketing standpoint, that makes the interest in their Age of Ultron collections skyrocket. They just went from having the eventual collection being kind of dead on arrival – I mean, who really wants that in their collection? – to being something a bevy of curious non comic fans desperately want to read as prep? So, no, it doesn’t strike me as odd. It’s genius, really.
Continued belowI do think ultimately though they won’t follow the storyline whatsoever. Here’s what I think they’ll do: Tony Stark will create Ultron (and given the obsession with developing suits and more automated tech in Iron Man 3, it fits), and from there, all hell will break loose. You have someone with the intelligence of Stark, the brawn of Thor and Hulk, the tactics of Captain America, and the ability to infect the systems of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the world itself with the greatest of ease. It’s our worst nightmare: what if our smart phones and tablets and 3D TV’s turned against us? What if technology itself was weaponized?
So I think the idea of Ultron being the villain has high potential for greatness. What do you think, and please, feel free to touch on the marketing aspect of naming it “Age of Ultron” right around the release of the collection.
Vince: You make a great point about selling more copies of “Age of Ultron” on the back of an upcoming film. I suppose I never even considered it – thinking only of the “book-to-film” direction of sales rather than the impact of the film subtitle on the sales of the trade. I guess I also am thinking of the future confusion or disappointment of the reader when the final product doesn’t resemble the book that they read. Neither of those concerns show that I have any sort of business acumen and am thinking of this solely as “the fan.” I can see where this could potentially confuse the casual reader, but the money has already been made and it doesn’t mean that the movie was any better or worse for it.
So setting aside the idea that the movie is going to turn out anything like the event comic (Whedon’s recent comments basically confirm that it won’t be), I will agree with you that Ultron is a great villain. Moreover, he’s a great “Avengers” villain – one of the oldest and most storied. He’s also one of the most complicated, however, with his bevy of forms and multiple potential origin points. I think your estimated synopsis is a slick, simple and thoroughly modern way to approach things. With Joss Whedon’s ability to push very “comic booky” things onto the screen without complicating them, I think he’s more than up to the task of forming Ultron’s origins organically. Well, uh, techno-organically.
Whedon has called this film a more “international” take on the Avengers, a more “sci-fi” film than the first one was, and has touted a larger role for Hawkeye. Care to take a stab at what any of those key points could mean for the film?
David: Well, we already know that supposedly the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are involved, so “international” could mean that they go to find new members at Wundagore Mountain, or it could mean they just get out of NYC. The Box Office is all about the global market now, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we see more of the Avengers helping the global community – not quite West Coast Avengers, but going a bit bigger.
Sci-fi seems obvious. I mean, it’s freaking Ultron. Can you get more sci-fi than an artificial intelligence designed to grow more and more intelligent? I think this is going to be darker than the last, and get more personal too, especially considering the fact Stark likely created Ultron. Is that whiskey I smell on your breath Mr. Stark?
Meanwhile, Hawkeye…I honestly don’t know. His role seems like it’s less of a fit than even the last one, but given Renner’s star quality and fan interest, I could see them trying to position him more in there. Especially when you factor in how little he played in last time from a heroic standpoint. Maybe they’re trying to create a Hawkeye solo film next by building him up here?
What are your thoughts on those? While you’re at it, can you address the biggest what the fuck part of the announcement to me: where is Thanos, and what’s the point of his credits scene from the last movie if he’s not the villain here?
Vince: My personal hope is that Avengers: Age of Ultron takes something of a leap forward and makes “The Avengers” an international operation with a ton of characters, even if most of them get almost no screen time or anything to do. I’d love for them to, by the end of the movie, establish the Avengers as being something that must grow if it hopes to stop the world from coming apart at the seams. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch would be perfect examples of that, but having more offshoots and teams running around in the background can cater to that idea as well. Talk about blowing open a movie-verse! I can imagine them laying down a glorified Easter Egg like a brief epilogue or post-credits deal where Alpha Flight or the West Coast Avengers show up as a nod to the larger scale of the hero community.
Continued belowI also have what I think is a pretty good perspective on the Thanos thing. A good bad guy is essential to a movie franchise, right? They can make your movie something extremely special, like The Dark Knight was. On the other hand, a poorly established villain with weak motivations is a common complaint in superhero films done badly. I think it’s clear that Marvel has set out to put Thanos at the center of everything in the film universe. He’s going to be Marvel Studios’ “Darth Vader” and Marvel would love to build him up to be that iconic. If they stay true to Thanos’ character – the mad Titan who courts death – then they’ll have one of the most original and compelling villain characters in sci-fi history. Thanos harbors some potentially fascinating motivations. If he’s the villain in “Avengers 2”, they potentially back themselves into a corner, not knowing where to go next when they’ve already spent their most thematically interesting character. That’s not to say that they won’t make a great Ultron film. Ultron may be the more classic “Avengers” villain, but he is not as meaty a character (at least in my opinion).
I think it makes the most sense to use Ultron in the second film, and save the more complex and theatrical Thanos to ripple throughout several of the Marvel Studios film before making him the big bad in what could very well be the final time we see all of these characters (or more likely, their original actors) together in one film. We already know that he’s showing up in Guardians of the Galaxy, but he’s apparently not the “big bad” in that. I think they just picked Thanos to be the ultimate threat for this iteration of the Marvel movie universe and I think it will prove to be a fine choice. Am I making a lick of sense here?
David: Yeah, you know, that makes a lot of sense. I’ll be totally honest, I was caught by the misdirection at the end, but I like your idea of making him the grand villain of the whole thing (although Palpatine might make more sense, ultimately!). That’d be the perfect way to take it, and I can only hope they slowly build him throughout the rest of the movies. It fits, given the development of the rest of the series.
Alright, to close this bad boy out, unless you have other things to add, now that you’ve had time to digest this how excited are you on a scale of 1 to 10 for the next iteration of Avengers? Regardless of the name?
Vince: Even with its flaws, Avengers was the pinnacle of superhero cinema, if you ask me. Having said that, I can’t put my excitement level as anything other than a 10. It may seem cliche or arbitrary to pick the highest number, but so far Avengers has been my childhood comic dreams realized on-screen in a way that no other comic book film has, to be frank. The words “Age of Ultron” certainly will cause a lot of grumbling – yours truly included – but the track record of all involved and the knowledge that they aren’t going to be attempting to adapt that mind-numbing story in any meaningful way means that we can ultimately throw all of those fears out the window. Basically, I want the next Whedon Avengers film, like, yesterday. I trust these people whole-heartedly.
David: Isn’t it funny how that works? I’m the exact same way. The Avengers was everything I wanted in a superhero movie, and until proven otherwise, I’m all over Joss Whedon’s interpretation. Of course, I say this as a person who has spent most of Sunday watching a Buffy marathon on SyFy, so, you know, apparently I’m the target market.
“Age of Ultron” or not, I truly think this could and should be better than the first one. We have even more to build on, and with more characters and a new and exciting villain, what’s not to love? I can’t wait for May 2015.
