While all of us at Multiversity are fans of a wide spectrum of comics, there are a few of us that tend to self-identify as “DC guys.” We’ve cried for justice; we’ve been through the blackest nights and the brightest days. And now, we’ve been culled together for a new column to focus on some of the bigger goings on in the world of Detective Comics Comics. If you’re wondering who is going to stand up and discuss what is happening at DC – don’t worry:
Lately, the DC3 has been confined to talking about the weekly comics – but today, we are able to do some good old fashioned speculation about the upcoming “Convergence” event, and what we hope, and fear, it might look like.
Please note: This conversation took place before the announcement this morning of the first 10 “Conversion” miniseries.
Brian: Well boys, here we are, with some actual concrete evidence of DC’s so called “band aid.” Starting April 1, we are getting a 9-part weekly series, as well as 40 two-part miniseries under the banner of “Convergence.”
A little bit of my secret origin: I hold a degree in theology, and one of the key parts of theological discussion is something called apologetics. Apologetics is, essentially, the practice of defending a position or rebutting a challenge of a position.
This is DC being apologists for the New 52. They are attempting to convince us that we’ve been wrong about their dismissal of the old continuity, and trying to convince us that this was the plan all along.
Discuss.
Vince: Well, they’ll never convince me in a million years, but I accept their apology nevertheless. Jim Lee’s quote about “everything counting” flies in the face of key New 52 writers who had asserted things such as: Tim Drake no longer having been a Robin, various gender/race changes, etcetera. If the executives were being totally honest, they’d admit that at some point in time they wanted all of these changes to stick. That was the very point of the New 52, right?
To be honest, I was totally behind the idea of a reboot, but they should have built the idea that the New 52 was just one possible Earth or Timeline in a multitude of timelines from the very start. Why shut out any of your potential or prior readers?
They should have made the New 52 an “Earth” from the start. An earth that, it just so happens, would be the only earth with books for a while. The attempt to gain new readership stands, yet the promise that everything you loved remains out there somewhere stays.
But yes, this is an apology. But I don’t need an apology. Marvel & DC? They’ve both made plenty of status quo mistakes over the years. It happens. What seems like a good idea at the time doesn’t always end up being good, or good ideas sometimes get executed poorly. Some aspects of the New 52 worked out extremely well and I’m happy we have them.
What I need, after this apology is said and done, and after “Convergence” is over, is for DC to realize that everyone can continue to have their cake and eat it too, and that it’d be really easy for them to pull that off. What I fear is that this is a temporary diversion to a new universe that tries to stick to some stringent set of rules that again confuse and alienate readers.
Mike Romeo had a great comment in an internal Multiversity discussion about this. Perhaps writers and artists can come up with stories and then say it’s on “Earth such-and-such” after the fact. Let the Multiverse work for them, not against them. Continuity shouldn’t prevent you from telling great stories outside of it. That’s the very purpose of having alternate earths, isn’t it?
Zach: You would have to be pretty naive to think that this was the plan all along. However, I am impressed with just how much planning has gone into what seems like a filler event while the company gets its eggs in one basket. From the Blood Moon teaser that kicked “Futures End” off, to the inclusion of said planetary body on the Multiversal map, to the tie-in to “Doomed,” it’s great to see DC putting so much effort into this.
Continued belowI agree with most everything Vince said regarding what should have and should do moving forward. A lot of this still goes back to the conclusion we reached in our podcast discussion a few weeks back. DC seems to finally be ready to let readers “have their cake and eat it too.” So, Convergence obviously seems like the perfect vehicle to make this happen.
Regardless of DC’s intentions and the path it took to get here, it’s impossible for me to not be excited when presented with a sort of “greatest hits” of DC history.
Although, when you get down to the nitty gritty, this isn’t necessarily a sure fire win. There are a lot of interesting creative choices going into the main “Convergence” series, and we’re still completely in the dark regarding the 40 two-parters. What were your reactions to the proposed design and structure of the “Convergence” event? I believe Vince has already committed to going all in?
Brian: Oh, by no means do I believe that this was always their intention – they are simply presenting it that way because, to DC, course correction is unacceptable. Or, at least until recently; books like the Burnside-era “Batgirl” or the Lemire/Sorrentino “Green Arrow” are nearly full on retcons.
What is fascinating to me is that, like you guys, I am looking right past the event itself to the fallout. I’m getting frothy at the mouth debating whether or not old characters will find their way into the New 52, or what the story is with these bottle cities, post-“Convergence.” But I have given precious little thought to the two months themselves, outside of, ‘jeez, that’s a lot of comics.’ So, let’s dig into that:40 two-part issues, 9 issues of a weekly series, all over the course of two months. That is, roughly, the same number of books DC is putting out right now, and if rumors are to be believed, many, if not most, of these creative teams are not the regular month to month creators. According to Bleeding Cool (who, by the way, got almost every detail of this correct), Tom Peyer is doing a two-part Ray Palmer as Atom storyline. This one raises a red flag for me, as we’ve seen Ray Palmer as the Atom in “Futures End,” and these stories aren’t supposed to involve the New 52 characters (a detail we were not aware of when we first discussed this).
So, what do you guys think of having this be, essentially, an 89 issue event? Does that excite you, scare you, make your significant other shiver in fear of the money you’ll be throwing at this?
Vince: Well, as Zach correctly stated, I will be going in on this event whole hog. And if I have anything to say about it, my significant other will never find out just how much jeopardy it put our mortgage payment in.
I think the creative group is a mixed bag, as multi-faceted events with tons of tie-ins tends to be. I’m not all that jazzed about the creators that we’ve already seen New 52 work from who are also showing up here. On the other hand, the idea of Tom Peyer and an unconfirmed Tim Truman contributing to a couple of two-part minis pretty much bowls me over. It gives me hope that rather than being a true throwback to the ’90s (as much of the New 52 unfortunately felt like), there will be multiple throwbacks to better times.
And as voluminous as the totality of the event is (again, the aforementioned 89 issues) – I feel like a bunch of two-parters is a lot more palatable than fewer numbers of longer miniseries. A 4-5 issue mini that’s no good is a lot harder to forgive than a 2-issue dalliance. Hiring guys like Peyer and Truman shows that they’re willing to go to some really good creators to see if they can put out a fun, short story with characters that they wrote in another era, and I think that’s the right approach for an event like this.
Continued belowThat said, how is it that we’re not already comparing this to the gimmick months that we’ve trudged through for the last 3 years? In fact, it’s kind of appalling how quickly DC made good on our own David Harper’s article about how the success of “Futures End” month only guarantees more months like it. Are we getting 3-D smell-o-vision covers? I’m surprised that’s not part of this.
And as far as looking further into the future beyond “Diverg- -cough- “Convergence”, I just hope DC treats their creative talent right. I’m not going to set myself up with a pie-in-the-sky expectation that DC Comics will create the Timm-verse comic universe that I want. I just want creators to be happy writing these iconic characters.
As you can see, I’m of many minds on the prospect of this event. It excites me, scares me, entices me, and makes me feel like a gullible idiot all at the same time.
Zach?
Zach: It’s funny just how much this feels like a September event. The idea of us having to read a full month of books, two months in a row, so soon after “Futures End,” causing me to twitch involuntarily as I type this. However, as with each of DC’s event months, I’m extremely optimistic about the potential. Just based off of the teaser image we’ve seen, I’m incredibly excited for two-parters focusing on 90’s DC, the classic JSA, and even a return to “Flashpoint.” I can’t say I’ll commit to going all in (although a nice DCBS discount package would certainly make it tempting).
I think something “Convergence” has going for it, compared to the other events, is its literally limitless story potential. DC has essentially opened the flood gates for creators to tell any kind of story. You mentioned the Timm-Verse, how bonkers/awesome would it be to get a Dini/Timm two-parter starring the animated Justice League. That single book would validate the entire stunt. I would say, more so than most events, the success of “Convergence” rests on the shoulders of these tie-in books, as opposed to the core series.
One thing that struck me as soon as details regarding “Convergence” began to emerge is its similarity to “Countdown.” Particularly, the tie-in miniseries “Countdown Arena.” To take the comparison even deeper, let’s bring “The Multiversity” into the fold. “Convergence,” at a glance, seems to fit snuggly into what Morrison and company are doing with the DC multiverse. Stare at it a little longer, however, and you start to notice some cracks. The worlds in “Convergence” don’t sound like they’ll all be taken from the 52 earths, but from worlds that technically no longer “exist.” We saw this same kind of incongruence between “Countdown” and “Final Crisis.” We’re all pretty big Morrison fans here, do either of you see this as another case of DC stepping on the writer’s toes?
Brian: I think this is the official end of Morrison’s creative influence being felt in the DCU. Damian is back, Batman is firmly under Snyder’s control, Superman looks to have shed almost anything he put into the character at the New 52’s dawn. “The Multiversity” is his swan song, and it allows DC to do what they want now, without worrying about undoing what Morrison did in the past. I truly believe “The Multiversity,” if it connects at all, will be in a reshaping of the Multiverse to be even more open to any and all possibilities, not just the 52 Earths (as the map hinted at).
I hope that the minis are as nutso and far-reaching as possible. A Timm-verse book would be great – hell, just because sacred cows make the best steaks, i’ll even root for a “Watchmen” book. Wait, scratch that – if I say that out loud Dan DiDio will get a boner and it’ll actually happen.
To go back to the feel of a September month feel, I agree, but this, to me, reminds me more of another DC event we’ve mention: “Flashpoint.” It has the skeletal main series, along with the alternate versions of characters we know and love. That also had a ton of books worked on by non-DC regulars, who were filling in to allow the New 52 creators to get a little ahead of their work before the launch.
Continued belowYeah, that sounds like “Convergence” to me.
Zach: I don’t know how I didn’t make the “Flashpoint” connection until you brought it up. Now that you have, I’m slightly less optimistic for “Convergence.” The “Flashpoint” miniseries presented a few interesting ideas, but for the most part were drawn out and very forgettable.
Of course, there’s another “Flashpoint” connection as well. It’s looking like DC is asking all creators to bring their current arcs to a close in March, just as they did in August of 2011. We’ve talked about the possibility of another relaunch in June of next year. I don’t think we’ll get a full on New 52 reboot. However, I won’t be surprised if we get another “all-new #1’s” style relaunch, possibly made up of a mix of “New 52 greatest hits” (i.e. Snyder “Batman,” Johns “Justice League”) and a hodgepodge of books from other worlds/universes. Do either of want to take a stab at predicting the future of the DCU?
Vince: Well, let’s get the big one out of the way: I don’t think this administration will ever go back from the New 52. That is to say, as much as they’re clearly willing to acknowledge other timelines, Earths, and past eras – they’re not going to set their universe back to a “pre-Flashpoint” timeline. I think anyone who thinks they might (and there probably aren’t many who do, anyway) should re-configure their expectations.
What I hope, and what I envision based on the “Convergence” event, is that DC Comics is going to be far more open to loosey goosey pitches that may not fit nicely with their status quo. And if we’re to believe Bleeding Cool’s Rich Johnston (and why would you not believe him, at this point), we already know DC Comics is looking for “blue sky pitches.” Could that also mean that the “sky’s the limit”?
I mean, “Batgirl” is the best evidence we have that DC is opening up to this sort of thing. Hipster Batgirl has a style and feel unlike anything else in the DCU, and it takes place in a Bat Family line that has very much been a “dark corner”, despite its consistently strong quality. It couldn’t feel more different than those books, or have less to do with them, at this point. It is entirely its own thing. And it’s refreshing.
To get more specific, I do see relaunches almost entirely across the board – Marvel Now! style. I do question whether books as young as “Secret Six” or “Gotham Academy” will go back to #1, or disappear, simply because I think they can easily hand wave that problem away by saying that anything that young actually takes place after the events of “Convergence.”
If DC truly is looking for “blue sky pitches”, I can see creators that haven’t written for DC in a while (or ever before) turning in their pitches. I mean, no one impossible like Mark Waid or anything, but guys we haven’t seen in a while. Or someone from Marvel wanting to work with DC characters. I predict at least one unexpected name usually or more recently associated with Marvel to be writing a book for DC.
As far as the “status quo” is concerned? I think they trend toward a basic “Justice League” line of books that tie together more closely and share some synergy with their movie and TV properties, but let a lot of the peripheral books get weird a la the recent Bat Family relaunches. I hope that’s the case. Sadly, I don’t predict a strong showing for “Teen Titans” yet.
How about you guys?
Brian: I, too, don’t predict a full scale reset or reboot – I see this as the softest of reboots. I think that, more than likely, “Convergence” will be used to course correct any of the really terrible DC decisions made since “Flashpoint” (and, if we’re being honest, before), but the New 52 will remain, more or less, in tact. However, I do think the “blue sky pitches” may be for real, and we may see a considered attempt by DC to let their creators, well, create without too much interference.
Continued belowI think we’ll see the “major” books, as Vince says, stay pretty close to what we’ve seen so far – nothing too out there. In fact, as much as we hypothetically would love an entire line up of “Batgirl” and “Gotham Academy” influenced books, that’s not going to happen. What, hopefully, will is a more diverse looking set of books – and this is the important part – that feel like what the creators truly intend.
Zach, what do you see as the line as of June?
Zach: I might have been a little misleading with my previous statements. Im not expecting DC to throw out the New 52 in any fashion. That thing is here to stay. DC is definitely going to continue to ride the success of Snyder and Capullo’s Batman and their “blue sky” titles like “Batgirl” and “Harley Quinn.” I also expect the next big event coming out of “Convergence” to be Geoff Johns’ “Darkseid War” over in “Justice League.” However, there are two big changes I’m expecting to come out of “Convergence.”
First, new number ones. Marvel has shown the success of continuous relaunches. I could definitely see DC attempting to recapture some of that New 52 magic with another line-wide #1 launch. The only fly-in-the-ointment for this prediction is relatively new series like “Gotham by Midnight” and “Secret Six,” which will have only a handful of issues out by the time “Convergence” hits. I don’t know how would handle that, but I imagine the prospect of another “Batman” #1 would motivate them to figure it out.
Next, I expect the Multiverse to be represented in a bigger way. That could either be the carte blanche approach we’ve discussed, where the world is chosen to suit the writer’s needs, or something akin to “Earth 2.” You just know there has to be a “Captain Carrot” book coming up soon.
There’s also a good chance we’ll get more weeklies. We already know there’s more “Batman Eternal” on the way. I could see a weekly “Superman” book on the horizon, or another “core” book like “Futures End.”
Vince: Speaking of esoteric and seemingly forgotten characters like Captain Carrot, what do we all think of the recent “Covergence” teaser that just got expanded and released online? Any characters, timelines, or corners of interest that you found in the piece?
For me, the Wally West, Cass, Stephanie Brown, Renee Montoya Question, Classic Harley Quinn bit might as well be named “Earth-Vince’s Favorites”
What else do we notice? Superman Red Son, Kamandi, Flashpoint, Classic JSA, Original Crime Syndicate, Kingdom Come, the Zoo Crew, Charlton, some configuration of a ’90s Justice League team, etcetera.
Zach: We’ve also got DC One Million, the Justice Riders, and Red Rain.
Vince: So we’ve thrown out all these ideas about what some of these “Timelines” might be, but which of them excite you guys most?
I hate to sound like a pure pre-Flashpoint enthusiast, because I’m really not and don’t really want to align with the vocal crowd that wants a full reversion and regrets that the New 52 ever happened, but for me it’s that “Pre-Flashpoint” image with Cass, Stephanie, Harley, Wally West, and Renee Montoya. The run of DC Comics from about 2007 to 2011 was an exceedingly special time for me. I was buying so much DC, and enjoying a great deal of it. The Bat Books in particular (which have been incredibly strong in the New 52 too, admittedly) were so special for me during that time. Every book felt a little different and explored a different corner of the Bat Family and their world. And it’s no coincidence that the Bat books are starting to get even better now that they’ve embraced the full genre diversity that they’re capable of.
How about you?
Zach: I’m right there with you on the 2007-2011 era of DC, Vince. I’d even go back a bit further to 2005 or so. Mirroring what you said, I’m not about to ask for a reversal back to pre-New 52 continuity. However, as a huge fan of Geoff John’s DC work, it’s always really bothered me that “Brightest Day” was completely negated thanks to the New 52. I realize we got some of what probably would have been (Aquaman and Swamp Thing), but the Firestorm, Hawkman, and White Lantern stuff just…went away. It’s always nagged at the continuity reconciliation center of my brain. If we could get some stories that pick up from where the pre-New 52 left off, I would be pretty ecstatic.
Continued belowI’m probably going to be in the vast minority about this, but I’m really excited to get more of the Flashpoint universe. Regardless of how that event was handled, I’ve always thought that world had a lot of great potential. From the moment the series ended I began envisioned what would come next. How might that world’s remaining heroes; the Shazam kids (sans Billy), Abin Sur, Dick Grayson as Doctor Fate, react to the aftermath of the battle between Atlantis and the Amazons? It’s definitely something I’d be interested in reading.
Brian: While I am happy to take a look into those areas, as the resident old fuck in the gang, the area I’m most hoping to revisit is obvious to anyone who really knows me: the Zero Hour – Infinite Crisis era. That era had Kyle Rayner, my favorite all time character, in the spotlight, alongside Jack Knight, star of my all-time favorite comic, and the Teen Titans of yore becoming the heroes of today.
To me, that is peak DC – building upon the (then) fifty years of tradition, and moving some of their legacy characters into the forefront. That, to me, is the biggest problem with the New 52 (and, again, I apologize for beating the same drum over and over again) – it doesn’t feel lived in and developed. I want to revisit the time when history mattered, and for me, the mid-90s DC were the time for that.
Outside of that? Some pre-Crisis Earth 2 would be pretty dope, as would a few of of the Elseworlds titles teased.
One last thing I want to talk about: we’ve been debating what those various worlds were, and you guys had an interesting idea: that, perhaps, the uppermost image of a solo Batman was a world based on the Arkham games or, maybe, the Nolan Bat-verse.
So, let’s go big game hunting here: what is the most out there/unexpected world you hope for a peak into?
Zach: On that note, I hope that DC just goes all out and uses “Convergence” to make everything canonical. Next year’s big event will be “Crisis of Infinite Batmans.” Christian Bale Batman, Adam West Batman, and Frank Miller Batman team up, hilarity ensues. Plus Bat-nipples.
So, I guess my answer is all of the worlds. That’s a huge cop-out, but it would be pretty unexpected, yeah?
Vince: Remember that rumor about a new comic based in the Bruckheimer Batman Universe? I’d love to see a garish, crotch-thrusting Riddler and a Two-Face trying to out-chew the scenery show up and get immediately obliterated. That’s my only wish this year.
Brian: I would love to see a very specific timeframe, only seen in part of one issue revisited. I’d love to see the mustachioed Superman from the end of “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow” show up again – that is a world that could be quite interesting to see two issues worth of adventures from.
