David: Yesterday brought the astounding news that Marvel and Netflix have ironed out a deal that will find five Marvel properties – Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Defenders – brought to life as Netflix mini-series. Timeframes for all of the minis are uncertain – we’re given a “December 2015” date – but there is no doubt that this is an exciting decision. There are a number of things I want to discuss about this, but let’s start with this: as a fan, what is your response, and as someone who is taking critical distance from it, what do you think this means for Marvel Films’ initiatives?
Matt: As a fan, I think my response can be summed up by the following image:
But that’s just the fan in me being excited that all these things I like are going to be shared with thousands upon thousands of people who have maybe never read the comics I have read, and I like seeing all the things I was bullied for liking as a child now becoming mainstream.
As a critic, I would say that this is an incredibly smart move on Marvel’s part. Daredevil is the only recognizable name in the announced titles, and I think that’ll be the hook for many people, but look at the rest of the line-up — Jessica Jones? Some of my most avid comic reading friends have never read “Alias.” And Luke Cage and Iron Fist on separate shows, not a “Heroes For Hire” program or something of that sort? Wow. Not only does the genre-possibility there mean infinitely exciting possibilities, but it’s clear that Marvel is actually trying to diversify their line-up and try things out in what is essentially a new medium of entertainment distribution with lesser known properties. They already won with superheroes on the big screen, now they’re trying to win with other heroes on the small screen.
I guess I just really like that Marvel is trying to push themselves towards the future and getting content out to people in different forms of media, and Disney certainly makes this very possible for them to do. Netflix hopping on board for the ride is all the more exciting.
So the line-up of planned shows are all great on paper, I think. And if this all ties into Marvel’s Cinematic Universe (like we all assume it does but I don’t think it has been confirmed or said anywhere?), then I’m honestly impressed at the lengths that Marvel Entertainment is going to diversify and extend their brands.
I just hope it reflects positively back at the comics.
SO THAT’S ME AND MY EXCITEMENT! How about you?
David: Oh, I’m on the same page, and I think the Netflix thing is FAR more exciting than, say, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. As cool as that is conceptually, I look at these minis as almost a trial run for a movie, or if unsuccessful financially/viewer wise, just a cool effort that could lead to other minis. In a way, it feels like this is the Dark Horse Presents to a potential full series, if that makes sense. And I think that’s a brilliant move, especially in light of what DC’s digital man Hank Kanalz was saying last week about trying to embrace the Netflix TV series template in comic form. This isn’t quite that, but it is comic storytelling on Netflix. It’s trade paperbacks come to life! That is so rad.
It is, undoubtedly, one of the most exciting comic and business deals of the year, and just another example of how bold Marvel is when it comes to things like this. And given the cachet they have in Hollywood, I have no doubt they’ll be able to pull together one hell of a cast and crew for all of these. It’s a brilliant, brilliant move.
Next question for you: which of these do you think will be the most successful, and which are you most excited for?
Matt: “Trade paperbacks come to life” — perfect description. That shold already be a pullquote.
I think it’s probably obvious that Daredevil will be the most successful, but my reasoning isn’t just that he’s the most popular. Granted, that is definitely a big part of it thanks to Ben Affleck, but that’s not the primary reason.
Continued belowThe reason Daredevil will be the biggest is because Daredevil is the first to come out. Daredevil will be the game changer here, or at the very least it’ll be the one that establishes the rules, right? As such, when everything is going through the inevitable hype machine and people are freaking out about what is to come, Daredevil will be the standard.
As such, not only do I think the biggest wave of people will come to see that, but we’ll also see who gives up on this initiative. Since Daredevil will be what we judge everything else against, it’s plausible that a) people may never bother to watch the other ones if Daredevil sucks and/or b) people will not watch the other ones because they’re not Daredevil. I honestly don’t know if it’ll matter what the other shows bring to the table if Daredevil doesn’t stick the landing, you know?
But, if Luke Cage stars Isaiah Mustafa as Cage (finally) then I might put my money on that as a close second.
David: I tend to think you’re right as to what will be the most successful, or at least the firebrand of the line. Coming first and being the most publicly notable character, Daredevil will be faced with the most attention and likely the brunt of the production emphasis. They’re going to want to go big out the gates, and I imagine this will lead this to be at least a high quality production.
However, if we’re talking potential, I really think Jessica Jones – if they go the Alias route – has the most. It translates the best to TV, it was already written pretty episodically and it just fits the medium. While I think that ultimately they won’t go the Alias route, if only because they’re certain to want to go the more “heroic” direction, the potential is massive for a story like this. Speaking of which, we might have to bust out a Casting Couch for this.
I think my biggest fear for this, and you may or may not agree, is a slow start like Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has faced. Netflix binge watching is very much fueled by two things: buzz and quality. If a show sucks, it’s getting dropped like a bad habit. If they come out with Daredevil and its some marginalized, mediocre version that plays everything safe, it just won’t work. They need to take chances here, especially on properties like this. Daredevil is a character that is primarily known for having a really awful – but interesting – life, with challenging themes and story lines pervasive throughout his entire existence. If they make him some guy who fights on playground equipment against a sort of hero sort of villain sort of love interest supporting character, it just won’t work.
But no one would ever do that with Daredevil, would they?
Matt: Well, I think if you look at Netflix’s current crop, they’re certainly experimenting with the type of shows that they want to “air” and produce and whatnot.
So, ok, we have Arrested Development which was met with mixed reactions by critics, but that Season 4 took a LOT of changes, particularly with the narrative. And you know what was made most clear by that production? That Netflix will just let the creators do what they want; whether you liked Season 4 or not, that was all Mitch Hurwitz and his crew doing their thing the way they wanted, and Netflix premiered it and provided it unapologetically.
If you look at their other shows, take House Of Cards. I have my opinions on it and wasn’t a huge fan of the ending of season one, but that is a dark and also relatively unapologetic show that went on to massive critical acclaim.
And then there’s Hemlock Grove, which I’ve not watched, and Orange Is The New Black, which I’ve not yet finished because of time, and you’ve got quite a diverse line-up of shows that are honestly pretty well received. I don’t know if you agree, but even though I’ve not seen it all (and I refuse to watch Derek), I’d say that Netflix’s original programming is really pretty good.
Continued belowSo now that Daredevil is in Marvel’s hand, and considering that Marvel honestly has a pretty decent track record of treating their properties with the respect and quality that fans mostly respond positively too (with personal preferences and some hit or miss SHIELD episode in there assuredly), I’d say that things are looking more positive than they are negative for the whole ordeal — and as difficult of a character as Daredevil may be, we live in the age of Dark Broody Male Protagonists on television, as well as law and order shows (no pun intended). Murdock’s saga is pretty much perfect for that, as well as Jones’ and even Luke Cage if he’s a solo hero for hire.
(It’ll be interesting to see what direction they go with Iron Fist, of course, and how much of the Fraction/Brubaker/Aja run influences it. I doubt they’re going to be re-making Kung Fu with Danny Rand or something.)
David: Whatever we’re talking about from a creative standpoint, Netflix is not a part of that. They’re not going to be part of the decision making tree, as you know, so its all on Marvel. My point is, Marvel’s first foray into TV is – in my opinion – rather toothless. I know you were a fan of this week’s episode, but honestly, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. just doesn’t do anything to stand on its own and make you think “YEAH! THIS IS AWESOME!” That’s all I’m saying. Marvel’s going to have to do something of value to make this a success in my book, and you can’t tell a Daredevil story by playing it safe like they do with AoS. That’s all I’m concerned about.
Now, the moment you’ve been waiting for: what do you think DC’s immediate response was to this?
Matt:
David: So you’re saying they weren’t excited for the positive attention this could bring to comics?!
Matt: Ha. No, I don’t think they were. I get the impression DC is mad more of the time than they’re not, reacting to what Marvel does with an adversarial nature while Marvel teases them and shoves them into lockers or something.
Why don’t you start us off on this one, though, since I know you think this is something DC might embrace or be excited about?
David: Oh, no, I don’t think that at all. They definitely aren’t EXCITED about it. They certainly view Marvel as their competition, and this is undoubtedly a bold move by Marvel. My perspective though from a pure business standpoint is this doesn’t impact their world too greatly. Whoever is first to the game isn’t necessarily the person who does the best (see: Meteor Man not being a massive hit, even if it was AWESOME), so I think if they can separate themselves from Marvel getting the lead, this could light a fire under them even if they have been quite busy themselves.
So no, I don’t think they’re excited about it, and I’m sure Dan Didio is busily tearing up copies of Daredevil like he works at Comics Ink right now, but I think some more prescient folks over there – certainly Warner Bros. types like Diane Nelson and people like Hank Kanalz – would look at this as something they can learn from and translate to success in their own future.
Matt: Holy shit. Did you just bring Meteor Man to the table? Damn! That’s some OG referencing if I’ve ever seen it.
See, I can agree with your general sentiments, but man, is this not symptomatic of DC just showing how progressive they aren’t? Because if we look at it, a lot of DC’s moves have just been reactionary to Marvel. DC should have tried to do a Justice League franchise years ago while most of Marvel’s lucrative film franchises were elsewhere, but it’s only in the aftermath of the Avengers that we’re finally seeing them push towards it. And Marvel did a tremendous push into digital and is still trying out new things, while DC is just getting to the Infinite Canvas — and only doing it with one comic for three issues at a time.
Continued belowWe live in a world where it’s important for these companies to consistently push their material out to new audiences in new and dynamic ways, and Marvel looking to be an early adopter and major player in the Season On Demand game is huge. You look at things that Marvel is trying like this, or Project GAMMA and the Marvel AR and all that and I just think, man, what is DC trying to do except recreate the 90’s when they were kicking Marvel’s ass and Marvel was heading towards bankruptcy?
So, sure, DC could come to the party fashionably late and say “Look at this cool new series we’re debuting on Hulu+!”, but I find it infinitely disappointing that this company that was home to so many characters and stories I used to love is lagging behind. Marvel gives us a connected television universe, DC gives us an Hourman and iZombie TV show. Uhm. Ok. Nice effort, guys.
David: First thing I’ll say about this, and its a subject for another time, but I think its fairly irrefutable that DC is currently stomping Marvel digitally. Not only are their digital products more acclaimed, but they’re also priced out at 99 cents vs. Marvel’s $2.99. But that’s another story for another time.
As far as being progressive thinkers, sure, Marvel is all up in that business. Gamma, AR, this…you name it, Marvel is hot. All I’m saying is I don’t think DC’s comparative lack of heat means that story can’t get switched in a heartbeat. Are they currently about as off their game in comic readers like ourselves minds as they can be? Totally. But I don’t think this negatively impacts them whatsoever. It just means they’ll be second to the game if they do go this direction. Keep in mind, the first domino that fell to drive the two plus year resurgence in sales in comics was in fact the New 52, and they were certainly first in the game to that.
Whether or not it was creatively a good idea is…debatable, but I contest that saying things like “DC got owned!” doesn’t mean much to them and much more to us.
Matt: But certainly public perception must matter to them at least a little, no? And I don’t mean from us, because I think it’s clear that fan opinion weighs very little on their actions. It’s all about the money, money, money.
I just think that, from the perspective of the media, DC probably has to care at least a little bit. DC announces Ben Affleck as Batman and it’s widely derided, criticized, panned and poked fun at. Marvel announces that they’re giving Jessica Jones and Iron Fist their on TV shows, and no one (as far as I’ve seen) seems to think this is anything less than exciting.
Jessica Jones. With her own TV show. Before Wonder Woman. This is a thing that is happening in our lifetime, David. Do you know the number of people I know that have read “Alias?” I can count it on one hand.
Somewhere, somewhere in the slowly emptying offices of DC’s HQ in New York, someone has to be flipping over a desk over this, right? Because while saying “DC got owned” doesn’t mean much, they’re kind of getting owned, perhaps even served. Schooled, at the very least.
David: Yes, the company that didn’t let JH Williams III and W. Haden Blackman finish their Batwoman story and chased numerous other creators off their books certainly is obsessed with public perception. They have caved multiple times – Gail Simone and the Harley Quinn stuff, for two – but those were different situations. What are they going to do, panic and release a Wonder Woman 3D feature length TV series directly to Google Glass?
Let’s wrap this up though. I think we can both say its a bold move, even a great one, and one that is quite the feather in the cap for a company that has proven itself to be a giant – perhaps even the giant – in Hollywood. For me as a fan and as someone who analyzes moves of this sort, it gets two thumbs up.
Matt: HA. Fair point is fair.
And, yes, I will also give this two thumbs up, if only because I can not wait to get my Doctor Strange And Pals TV Show. Screw being objective for a moment, lets get that flowing cape and Hollywoodian facial hair on TV by the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!
