With last week’s “Avengers vs. X-Men” #5, everything changed and the first act of this mega event came to a close. It’s been a hotly debated title around Multiversity’s offices, so MC’s EIC Matt Meylikhov and Associate Editor David Harper teamed up to discuss what’s gone on so far. That discussion is below, and for those that aren’t caught up, beware spoilers.
David: So AvX is now five issues old, and the end of the first act came and went with Marvel’s big game changer at hand. MC EIC Matt and myself are here to talk out how AvX has been going, where we think it is headed and everything else about the series, but to start, I wanted to talk about that game changer, Matt. What was your first reaction to the whole Phoenix-ing of part of the Extinction Team? Like it? Love it? Hate it? Confused by it? Did you feel like it was truly a game changer?
Matt: I don’t know if I would go so far as to say I loved it, but I certainly liked it and didn’t have any problems with it at all. Honestly, I’ve found the whole thing pretty entertaining, and for the big reveal to be that there is not just one host but five was something I at least didn’t see coming, so credit where credit is due for that. Plus, Cyclops’ new outfit is pretty bad ass. And yes, it’s a game changer, if only for the literal definition of the game being changed. It’s obviously not permanent, though; this, to me, is the equivalent of the Mutant-ruled world of “House of M.” It just confirms that the X-Men are the “bad guys” of this story.
David: I could see that (besides the new Cyclops’ costume – I hate all of them, I think they look ridiculous). I suppose it is good that we didn’t see it coming. But at the same time, just because it was unpredictable doesn’t mean it was good. I think in the hands of someone else it might have worked, but Fraction and Romita made the whole thing just feel silly. I don’t know – it felt like both the creative team and the Phoenix were grasping at straws saying, “oh shit, what do we do now?” and then went for the first thing they could think of.
But I suppose at least they don’t have hammers.
All that said, it is definitely a game changer. You’re right about that. But I just don’t see how this will push the narrative. Now we have five Phoenix hosts traipsing around the Earth with some unknown agenda, and now it will be the Avengers and probably the X-Men rolling around trying to take down the Phoenix Force Five, with Hope along for the ride. I’m tempted to get into what’s next first, but before we do that, tell me: what is it that you’ve enjoyed the most about the series so far? You said you think it’s entertaining. What are you really digging?
Matt: I don’t know if I’d go that far as to call it an uninspired moment. I mean, realistically, the Phoenix coming to Earth was not going to mean that the Earth would be destroyed. It hasn’t in the past, it wouldn’t now. But the Phoenix coming to Earth for some kind of task? That seems to make sense to me, and I can even follow the logic between the past and the present. Besides, for a story that was basically billed as “people punching people,” I think having the various architects take stabs at telling the story with their own voices has added an interesting twist to the general event malaise I think we’ve all been feeling. And I for one like Romita and Fraction, silliness or no.
So, as for what I’m digging, it’s really the idea of all the different voices telling different parts of the story. That, to me, is what is keeping me intrigued and second guessing. I want to say that, you know, there are certain things we could probably predict about what Writer A might do or Writer B, but when they’re all together you’re more unsure. It’s nice to have an event where I can’t really tell you what’s going to happen (partially because I’m avoiding solicits), and while I’m sure the solicits for for October will just about ruin every big moment at the end of “AvX”, for now I’ve been genuinely surprised and entertained.
Continued belowThat and, for all intents and purposes, I “shut off my brain” before reading an issue. I hope that doesn’t sound insulting to the creative team or anyone else who works/likes the book, but I tend to go into most of the comics I buy with a very analytical and critical point of view. For “AvX”, I haven’t done that once, and so far I’ve enjoyed every issue. So there you go!
David: For me, the thing that I’ve enjoyed the most so far has been Wolverine’s position as the pivot point for so much of the story. As the main guy who is both an Avenger and a X-Man, he had unique perspective in this story, and many have run with it well. Namely, Hickman and Aaron. I loved the way he was the one who sniffed out Cyclops’ hijinks when they were “captured” by the Avengers and how he was the one Hope turned to, and the story that tied to it. That has been by far my favorite part of the story, but granted, Wolverine is undoubtedly my favorite Marvel character.
I do like what you’re saying about the different voices too. You can definitely feel slight differences between everyone, and it fits to what they do.
That said, that’s about where I draw the line in terms of positivity. Honestly, I’ve been extremely unimpressed by this event so far, and my two biggest beefs are this: the tie-ins in many cases have told the surrounding story far better (namely, Wolverine and the X-Men) and John Romita, Jr.
For the first part, it comes down to this story having no emotional resonance to it. AvX itself has done a poor job of conveying what matters and why it does, but the surrounding tie-ins have been far stronger. That’s been a problem surrounding Marvel events for a bit – it’d be like if Lost the show itself sucked but the experience of doing all of the tie-ins online were awesome to the point you couldn’t drop the TV show. You want the central part to be great too.
And Romita…well, he just feels like he’s phoning it in. A lot of the work is ill formed, poorly conceived and just kind of lazy. I can’t tell you how excited for Coipel I am.
Past that, there are other things I don’t like: story inconsistencies, logic gaps, Cyclops’ becoming a straight up cult leader with no logic behind his decisions any more, Iron Man going all Transformer on us, you name it. I have a lot of complaints. Is there anything that has been bothering you about it? I know you’ve shut your brain off for it, but is there anything you haven’t liked?
Matt: Well, in regards to some of the inconsistencies and whatnot, I’ll assume you may be referring to some of the disconnect between issues of “AvX” and the tie-ins. I will note here that if you just read “AvX” and nothing else, it all reads rather well together. I’ve been reading the tie-ins since I happen to be buying the books they pop in anyway, and while those tie-ins are often hit or miss as to whether or not they line up with the main story, it stands as noteworthy that the main story has stood on it’s own well, and that’s not something we’ve seen from a Marvel or DC event recently (“Blackest Night” and “Fear Itself” both required additional purchases for just the main story, as you remember I’m sure).
As for Cyclops and Iron Man… I mean, Cyclops has been on a downward spiral for a while now, at least since Hope returned and “Schism” being a big part of that, and Iron Man has always been building pretty big, crazy suits. None of that seemed too out of the blue for me.
But moving back a bit, really the only thing that bugs me is that the tie-ins don’t match up. That just seems a bit weak to me. I mean, look, I just said you don’t have to read the tie-ins, and you really don’t, but I was going to buy “Secret Avengers” anyway because Rick Remender is writing it. It’d be nice if that story matched up more evenly with everything else going on. That and little things, like the disconnect between a book like “Wolverine and the X-Men” (written by an event architect) and the same events happening in the main book always irk me a little. It’s not that big of a deal to me, though. I take the tie-ins as little embellishments and put all my “interest” (or whatever you want to call it) into the main book.
Continued belowThat’s what it comes down to: if, by the end of “Avengers vs X-Men” I will not have had to buy any of the other titles, I will be a happy camper, quality of the story aside. Maybe I’m just five years old really, but the event has been like watching someone take some of my favorite toys and bash them all together while saying “Zoom!” and “Pow!”, and there’s a certain entertainment factor in not trying to tell an intensely nuanced story versus just a big, fun blockbuster.
Then again, in today’s comic climate I’m sure many people will tell me that’s the wrong attitude to have when choosing what books to buy…. so hey, I’m happy to be wrong here. But, you know, so far there’s not a whole lot I really haven’t enjoyed that can’t be written off as “well, it was part of a tie-in anyway.”
David: So here’s a question for you: why couldn’t this story have been told in the pages of the tie-in books? Why did we need this event comic going – written by the architects – and have tie-ins that cause inconsistency – written mostly by the architects – when you could have just told the story all in the pages of books that already existed and have the whole deal make more sense from a narrative standpoint? I’m all game with fun, but it, in my book, hasn’t been fun or even a good story…yet. I think if they looked to make a little less money and tried to spend more time telling a good story, this whole deal would be better.
That’s how they used to do events!
Matt: Well, I feel like that conversation might just dive too much into semantics. You and I know the difference between “an event book” and “a crossover,” but we live in a time where businesses are trying to appeal not just to you and me, but to people who don’t read comics. That’s the big thing: this event is supposed to be new reader friendly and, for better or for worse (outside of a neophyte not knowing a character or two), it is. It’s easier for someone not reading Marvel, or comics in general, to say, “Hey, can I have a copy of the Avengers and X-Men book?” and have a store clerk hand them five issues of a book, as opposed to who knows how many cross-overs and tie-ins.
Personally, when I was a young reader — and I’ll note myself as a young reader twice, both as someone who was buying comics in gas stations on a weekly allowance and someone who came back to comics after a long break at the end of high school — I always hated buying books that have forced me to go and seek out a zillion other titles. As someone not reading every title being released back then, I found it grating on both my wallet and my interest. Now I read everything, so whatever, I’m “caught up,” but if we’re looking to bring in some new folks it’s easier to have “Avengers vs X-Men” #1 over “X-Men #234, Avengers vs X-Men Part Three Of Twenty” or whatever.
Will it bring in new folks? I’m not that optimistic, no. But hey, there’s still people like me who are in shops on Wednesday listening to people (like you!) complain and saying, “Oh, come on, it’s not that bad” and telling a new reader or two to at least give it a shot if you like big punches.
David: Which is funny, because last week when I read the issue in the shop, I followed that up with openly trashing the book with a couple of the shop employees. I don’t really think it’s that new reader friendly, if only because I just don’t think it is very good.
That said, a bunch of people I know up here in Alaska never read comics before but have been picking up AvX and are now buying other books. So what do I know? I’m just a guy with too many scarves!
So here’s the next question for you: what do you think comes in Act Two? Are you excited for Coipel?
Continued belowMatt: Good is, as always, in the eye of the beholder. For comic veterans like you or I, admittedly it’s not exactly ground breaking or anything. Like, I suppose if I was taken at gun point and I could only by “AvX” or… I dunno, a Vertigo title or a book from Image or Dark Horse, I can say I would not pick “AvX” in that scenario! But, seeing as I can get “AvX” without jeopardizing any of the books I really love and I continue to enjoy the ride of “AvX” (due to creative teams I enjoy and characters I like reading about being toyed with), I remain optimistic.
As for what comes next? I don’t know. I kind of said it before, but I shut my brain off for a lot of it and just take it as it come. I will say that I expect Wanda, Xavier and Legion to show up, as well as some pay-off for all this K’un Lun stuff. I will also say that I fully expect the X-Men to “lose”, to whatever capacity a major Marvel franchise can lose. As for anything more specific, I wouldn’t know… but I will say I hope someone dies. It’s not an event without a death!
And as for Coipel? Man, of course I’m excited for Coipel! I love his work, and it makes me sad there are no regular outings from him in the comic book world. I will go ahead and guess that every person who complained about Romita will also be happy with Coipel. Loved him on “House of M” and “Siege”, I assume I’m going to love him here.
David: I don’t even mean a good comic in comparison to great comics. I mean a good comic in that it tells an engaging story with quality writing and art. But that’s a fundamental difference between the two of us in this case: our perspective on what this book is happens to be entirely different. Right, wrong, who knows?
I think you’re right though. The whole inclusion of Xavier and Legion in the Phoenix bit from #5 seems to imply that they’ll be coming back around sooner rather than later. Wanda will assuredly be involved too, and I think this will all end with not much of anything really even happening. But I could be wrong.
And that K’un Lun thing – including that dude in issue #5 makes no sense if this is truly a standalone book. But whatever. I’m not reading Avengers anyways.
Coipel is honestly the part I am most excited for going forward, but I really don’t have much faith in the story doing anything of interest besides making pretty art.
So, after the first act, what would you give this on a ten point scale?
Matt: Maybe you just need to think about it less and just do what I do: shut your brain off! It is working wonders for me here, let me tell you!
As for the K’un Lun element, not to belabor this or anything, but really, if that does have an “AvX” pay-off (as it should), all it would really take is a line of dialogue: “Long ago in K’un Lun, we faced the Phoenix Force, yadda yadda yadda.” But whatever, we’ll see how that plays itself out later down the road.
Oh, and I guess Nova should probably come back at some point, shouldn’t he?
On a ten point scale, for the first five issues? Well, I’d give it probably an 8.0 average. I was leaning more towards a 7.5 initially, but I’m feeling generous. All in all, the book has been the equivalent of a “B-” to me: it’s entertaining enough to make me not feel silly for actually buying it while not being extraordinary in any form or fashion to justify me really trying to convince you that it’s better than you think it is. If they were to put a pullquote from me on the hardcover, it’d probably be something like, “Hey, I like it enough!”
David: I am going to be far less nice about it. I am going to give it a 4, and I had to talk myself into it. 2.5 because the writing is decent, 1.5 because I haven’t enjoyed the art much at all. If there was a pull quote from me on the hardcover, it would probably be something like, “it’s sort of okay some of the time!” But hey, different strokes for different folks! We’ll chat again after the second act, at which point the Avengers will all be Velociraptors or something.
